What if the US stays out of world war two and the Japanese invade Siberia instead of Manchuria

I am curious about what you all think of this video from Alternate history Hub on youtube.


Specially, the chances of the Soviet Union winning the war all on its own if america stays out, and against a Japanese invasion from the north and germans from the south.
That is something I doubt and I think if that happened, the Soviets may have been totally overran. They only pushed the Germans back by redeploying their Siberian divisions to the west. If the Japanese invaded, they couldn't have done that

And now I know the Japanese wouldn't have done that, they had their hands full already and didnt want to mix it up with the Soviets. But in this scenario, I think the Japanese want to take Siberia instead of Manchuria.
 
December 7th, 1941: A Different Path covers this scenario.

The premise was plausible at first but it drifts to ASB territory later on.

The IJA attacks Siberia, causing the USSR to collapse. The United States under FDR was about to declare war on Germany after U-boats intensify, but Congress does not pass it due to increase isolationist views.

The end result is Germany gets to develop the atomic bomb first, which they detonate above New York City. I forgot the details but what happens next is the United States is placed under German occupation. A Vietnam-style insurgency occurs. Several years later, Albert Speer becomes the leader of the Reich and orders the occupation of the U.S. to end.
 

Garrison

Donor
Sorry but the Japanese going north is unlikely the USA staying out of the war even more so. The US Navy was already in a shooting war in the Atlantic, the first combat casualties for the USN came in the Autumn of 1941 in the Atlantic, not at Pearl Harbor. After winning re-election in 1940 Roosevelt was in a strong position and Isolationist sentiment was declining not increasing, at least in so far as providing ,material support to Britain and the USSR went. There's nothing in Siberia to address the shortages afflicting Japan and the USSR did not strip its defences to send the divisions needed for the counterattack at Moscow, the reference to them as 'Siberians' is just a shorthand to describe them that's pretty inaccurate. Also this is hardly the first time such ideas have ben brought up, so there are other threads that go into this in some detail.
 
The Japanese need oil. Yes there's oil in Siberia, but it took until the 80's to get the equipment to be able to access it as Siberia is HARSH and a lot of the oil is in places where its freezing an aweful lot and its basically inaccessable. So if this happens, the IJA will invade a largely frozen tundra for no reason as the resources that Japan needs are not there. They are, they just can't largely get at them and if they can, its not in the quantities they need.
 
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The Japanese need oil. Yes there's oil in Siberia, but it took until the 80's to get the equipment to be able to access it as Siberia is HARSH and a lot of the oil is in places where its freezing an aweful lot and its basically inaccessable. So if this happens, the IJA will invade a largely frozen tundra for no reason as the resources that Japan needs are not there. They are, they just can't largely get at them and if they can, its not in the quantities they need.
In this, Japan does not invade Manchuria. So US does not sanction oil. Instead, the Japanese chooses to expand into Russia.
 
Sorry but the Japanese going north is unlikely the USA staying out of the war even more so. The US Navy was already in a shooting war in the Atlantic, the first combat casualties for the USN came in the Autumn of 1941 in the Atlantic, not at Pearl Harbor. After winning re-election in 1940 Roosevelt was in a strong position and Isolationist sentiment was declining not increasing, at least in so far as providing ,material support to Britain and the USSR went. There's nothing in Siberia to address the shortages afflicting Japan and the USSR did not strip its defences to send the divisions needed for the counterattack at Moscow, the reference to them as 'Siberians' is just a shorthand to describe them that's pretty inaccurate. Also this is hardly the first time such ideas have ben brought up, so there are other threads that go into this in some detail.
In this, since Japan never goes into Manchuria America never sanctions oil. No oil shortage
 
In this, Japan does not invade Manchuria. So US does not sanction oil. Instead, the Japanese chooses to expand into Russia.

In which case why are the Japanese going to war at all?

Exactly. At this point this isn't imperial Japan. IE a crazy military that had a country attached. Without an embargo, without any Chinese invasions, why would they go to war? Why would they join the axis? This isn't Imperial Japan in the build up to WW2, I don't even know what it would be, but its not Imperial Japan.

The problem with this premise is that the Japanese act exactly like Imperial Japan, without actually acting like them ITTL or having any passing similiarity to them. Hell, a rational Japan here could actually be in the allies.

So with no embargo, no crazed military running the show and turning the country into a deeply xenophobic and racist horror that viewed itself as superior to EVERYONE else. Why would they go to war over a largely frozen wasteland. Its not for resources, they don't know they are there and no one on the planet has the technology to actually get at them. So other than "Because." why would they go to war?
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Japanese Army runs out of Oil by the summer of 1942 at the very latest.

Kwantung Army gets utterly destroyed by the Red Army Far Eastern Front (which, as is noted here regularly, was NEVER weakened at any point in the war) with it's 3,000 light tanks and 430,000 combat troops fighting from prepared defensive positions.

Lacking oil the Japanese forces in China lose both the advantage in mobility and air supremacy while the Nationalist Chinese retain access to Western, primarily American, aid coming over the Burma Road. With massive logistical difficulties the IJA is unable to hold many of its advanced position and has to fall back with nothing better than air parity as the IJN also runs through its oil reserves (or has them transferred to the Army by the Imperial General Staff) and is largely imobilized reducing the IJN's capacity to provide support for the Japanese Army. Sometime in the second half of 1942 the Chinese clear a section of the coast, likely somewhere northeast of Hong Kong or the mainland region near Hong Hong itself, and the flow of U.S. aid into China goes from a trickle to a torrent as the deliver method goes from truck over a relative goat path to cargo ship unload 10,000 tons of materiel at a time.

Sometime in 1943 the Japanese do something idiotic (like attack a U.S. flagged Liberty ship sailing into Hong Kong) and find themselves in a War with the United States. This is, of course the post 1940 Two-Oceans Navy Act version of the U.S. military with at least 10 fleet carriers, Hellcats and Avengers, with 8 fast battleships and 30 or so new cruisers and 100+ new destroyers. Japanese bases on Formosa fall under air attack by B-24G bombers with P-38 escorts (the Lightening have been found to be less useful as a bomber escort than its single engine P-47 and early P-51 rivals) with IJN air assets, especially fighters having been victimized by lack of fuel for training, being qualatively as well as quantitatively inferior to the newer, much more rugged U.S. designs.

Much the same fate befalls Saipan as the recently completed and fully updated U.S. facilities on Guam are used to stage crippling air attacks against the Japanese Mandates. Again , lack of fuel, not just for aircraft, but for the logistical needs of the IJA/IJN forces on the Island means the U.S. rapidly gains complete air supremacy over the Island.

By mid-1944 the Japanese have been pushed out of China, are fighting to maintain what is left of their position in Manchukuo and the Korean Peninsula against a combined Chinese/U.S. ground force coming from the West while a Red Army advance comes from the East.. Japan is under nearly daily heavy air bombardment from American bases in China, on the recently captured Formosa, and likely Okinawa, where the 15,000 poorly equipped defenders were obliterated in three weeks of hard fighting,

The U.S. establishes a air-tight naval, submarine, and air blockade of Japan while Russian aircraft pummel Hokkaido, occupy the Kuriles, and Sakhalin before the end of 1944.

tl;dr: The Japanese get fed their lungs.
 
Japanese Army runs out of Oil by the summer of 1942 at the very latest.

Kwantung Army gets utterly destroyed by the Red Army Far Eastern Front (which, as is noted here regularly, was NEVER weakened at any point in the war) with it's 3,000 light tanks and 430,000 combat troops fighting from prepared defensive positions.
Soviet forces did lose both a large amount of equipment and experienced personnel in 1941. That year the number of tanks (presumably both assigned to actual units as well as in reserve, undergoing repairs, etc.) was decreased from 5,400 to 2,100, and the number of planes from 4,100 to 3,200. (Prior to the transfers 660 tanks and 347 planes were classed as inoperable.) Although manpower levels were increased due to wartime mobilization, many of the original officers and division cadres were moved west; elements of up to 18 divisions through November 1941.

The effect was that the Soviets were forced to take a much more conservative approach to defense in Siberia and tried to rely a lot more on their static fighting positions. Still, they planned to throw everything they had into defending the border zone and even had ideas about launching an offensive down the Sungari River to take pressure off Khabarovsk, which would reach Fujin and Baoqing by D+25. Don't know how much it would have helped in the short term though. Soviet airpower in particular seems to be misallocated in their contingency plans, as the emphasis on massive attacks against the opponent's airfields - at least to the extent it showed up in Japanese plans - seems to have been absent.
 
In this, Japan does not invade Manchuria. So US does not sanction oil. Instead, the Japanese chooses to expand into Russia.
Japan was not sanctioned for invading Manchuria. They had been there since 1931. They were sanctioned for invading French Indochina. The Japanese occupation of IndoChina was a reaction to trya and cut off the supply lines to mainland China where the U.S. was upset with Japanese actions.

Manchuria was pretty much a fait accompli by that point.
 
December 7th, 1941: A Different Path covers this scenario.

The premise was plausible at first but it drifts to ASB territory later on.

The IJA attacks Siberia, causing the USSR to collapse. The United States under FDR was about to declare war on Germany after U-boats intensify, but Congress does not pass it due to increase isolationist views.

The end result is Germany gets to develop the atomic bomb first, which they detonate above New York City. I forgot the details but what happens next is the United States is placed under German occupation. A Vietnam-style insurgency occurs. Several years later, Albert Speer becomes the leader of the Reich and orders the occupation of the U.S. to end.
Wait. The Japanese causes the breakdown of the USSR? The same ones that got their asses handed to them two years ago? The guys applying light infantry and Bushido against tanks?
 
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against a Japanese invasion from the north and germans from the south.
Okay…maybe I’m missing something but, how exactly are the Japanese invading the Soviet Union from the NORTH, ie the Arric Circle? Or the Germans from the SOUTH, IE Central Asia and the Middle East?
 
Exactly. At this point this isn't imperial Japan. IE a crazy military that had a country attached. Without an embargo, without any Chinese invasions, why would they go to war? Why would they join the axis? This isn't Imperial Japan in the build up to WW2, I don't even know what it would be, but its not Imperial Japan.

The problem with this premise is that the Japanese act exactly like Imperial Japan, without actually acting like them ITTL or having any passing similiarity to them. Hell, a rational Japan here could actually be in the allies.

So with no embargo, no crazed military running the show and turning the country into a deeply xenophobic and racist horror that viewed itself as superior to EVERYONE else. Why would they go to war over a largely frozen wasteland. Its not for resources, they don't know they are there and no one on the planet has the technology to actually get at them. So other than "Because." why would they go to war?
I understand that this is a scenarios that was so far outside of what could ever have possibly happened. When talking about alternate histories, some times we talk about things that could have happened and were in the realm of possibility. But this is not
The Japanese were going to invade Manchuria. That was going to happen. The Japanese army was hellbent on doing it and so determined in doing it, they killed anyone who opposed them. Any civilian government that tried to restrain the army ended up killed. They were going to do this and to change that, we have to go way back and change the very nature of japan and the army.

At first I considered that this could be a very dark future where fascism wins and we in america see a fascist 1950s for staying out, instead of what that video shows a very communist victory over europe in the 1950s.
We stay out, japan and Germany join forces against the Soviet Union and we stay out. Soviets are crushed and the nazis are victorious in europe. But the more I thought, the more that seemed unlikely even if this did happen.

Even if for some reason, what ever the reason the Japanese attacked Siberia in some anti communist pact with Germany theres little reason we would stay out in america. The US would still probably join the UK in pushing back the germans and the US is still supplying arms to the UK. So that probably goes as before
But still, theres no way the Japanese dont attack Manchuria
 

TDM

Kicked
I am curious about what you all think of this video from Alternate history Hub on youtube.


Specially, the chances of the Soviet Union winning the war all on its own if america stays out, and against a Japanese invasion from the north and germans from the south.
That is something I doubt and I think if that happened, the Soviets may have been totally overran. They only pushed the Germans back by redeploying their Siberian divisions to the west. If the Japanese invaded, they couldn't have done that

And now I know the Japanese wouldn't have done that, they had their hands full already and didnt want to mix it up with the Soviets. But in this scenario, I think the Japanese want to take Siberia instead of Manchuria.
What's in Siberia the Japanese want so badly that they go past Manchuria to get it?

Japanese colonial/imperial ambition was always Korea then China as primary goals. The subsequent need for specific resources was triggered by

1). getting stuck in China

and

2). International reaction to invading China

is better served by going south than into Siberia anyway. On top of that you have the previous experience of Russo-Japanese conflicts that will effect their decision making.


The thing is the Japanese have to have good reasons to make the moves that give the end result you mention, they're not going to do it 'for free' as it were.
 
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This is the problem. Why? Why attack the USSR? Japan wanted control of Asia and the western Pacific. That is an understandable goal. But Siberia is next to useless as far as building a greater Japan goes.
 

Garrison

Donor
What's in Siberia the Japanese want so badly that they go past Manchuria to get it?

Japanese colonial/imperial ambition was always Korea then China as primary goals. The subsequent need for specific resources was triggered by

1). getting stuck in China

and

2). International reaction to invading China

is better served by going south than into Siberia anyway. On top of that you have the previous experience of Russo-Japanese conflicts that will effect their decision making.


The thing is the Japanese have to have good reasons to make the moves that give the end result you mention, they're not going to do it 'for free' as it were.
And there was zero strategic co-ordination between Axis members. The Germans didn't warn the Japanese about Barbarossa and the Japanese didn't warn the Germans about Pearl Harbor. There is really no reason for the Japanese to go north, especially if there is no oil embargo.
 
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