What if the infamous Henry VIII never became king?

Henry VIII is an English king best known for his six wives, his extreme body weight toward the end of his life and his break from the Catholic Church after he couldn't get a divorce with his wife Catherine of Aragon. However what if he never became king?

Henry VIII as many of you may know was not always first in line to become king. He had an older brother named Arthur who was supposed to be king instead of him and believe it or not, Henry was supposed to go into the church to eventually perhaps become the Archbishop of Canterbury. His brother Arthur even married Henry's first wife Catherine. Unfortunately Arthur died only a few months into his marriage with Catherine at the age of 15 in 1502. But what if this didn't happen? What if he managed to survive this mysterious illness that killed him like his wife did? This is the subject of my timeline King Arthur: Not Just of the Round Table, which we will be discussing on this thread.

Anyway, the timeline begins when Arthur survives in 1502. Since him and Catherine survived a near fatal illness, the royal court throws them a huge banquet in their honor. A little while later Arthur and Catherine have sex (now we can know for sure they consummated their marriage) and in 1504 Catherine gives birth to a baby boy named Henry after Athur's father. This Henry not Arthur's brother Henry becomes the future Henry VIII of England. Catherine manages to bear three more surviving children: Mary (b. 1507), Isabella (b. 1509) and Arthur (b. 1512). Just like Henry VIII, Arthur becomes king when Henry VII dies in 1509. Arthur is king until he dies himself in 1528 at the age of 42. He is succeeded by his son Henry VIII (again not the same in OTL) who becomes king aged 26.

Arthur's reign is different than his brother's reign in OTL. First of all, he remains a devout Catholic monarch all his life and faithful to his wife (never having a mistress). He is quiet, soft-spoken, and laid back. He is not charismatic and serious unlike Henry VIII in OTL. His reign was marked with an increasing friendship and alliance between England and Spain and the HRE. Arthur was close to his nephew by marriage Charles V and served as a father figure to him (despite being only 14 years his senior) after his real father Philip died in 1506. Charles also becomes very close to Henry VIII, Arthur's son, and the two become best friends and develop a brother like relationship with each other. Charles also marries Arthur's elder daughter Mary causing his OTL kids such as Philip II to never be born.
 

No mistress? I think you paint the good Arthur in a more favorable light than most medieval/renaissance kings can bear.
Anyway: As you say: England stays Roman-Catholic.

If a friendship between England and Spain (--> with the HRE) develops, which is by NO means a given, since their interests diverge even without the Reformation, the pressure increases on the Reformation when it happens.

Also: What makes you so certain that they'll have children?
We know that Henry VIII (the OTL one) wasn't infertile, so Arthur will probably have the same problem if he has the same wife.
 
Last edited:
You bring up some good points. England does stay catholic in this timeline and it still is today with a small Protestant minority. England and Spain/HRE remain good friends. In 1536, king Henry VIII of England (Arthur's son) and Charles V team up to conquer France which is successful (France later receives their independence in the late 1700s only to be conquered again in the middle 1800s by King Julian the Great of Britian and become independent finally in the 1920s after the first global war). Also, Henry and Catherine did have children they just died as infants except for Mary so Catherine was able to bear children.
 

Pangur

Donor
This TL are some significant impacts on Irish history. There would still be an attempt to capture the country IMHO however the religious angle would be removed - Come to think about it, would there be an Oliver Cromwell?
 
This TL are some significant impacts on Irish history. There would still be an attempt to capture the country IMHO however the religious angle would be removed - Come to think about it, would there be an Oliver Cromwell?

In this TL Henry VIII (Arthur's son) does invade and conquer Ireland in 1540 not for religious reasons but to expand the British empire. Ireland eventually rallies for independence and gets it in the 1940s (contrary to OTL the whole of Ireland including Northern becomes independent) although British-Irish Tensions are in the rise in present day ATL. In fact, a recent British king Richard V had to abdicate in 2004 to his sister the current queen Patricia II due to a scandal involving Irish terrorists. About Oliver Cromwell, he becomes nothing more than a simple unknown British citizen ATL because Puritans never develop (England never becomes Protestant in the first place and loyal to the Roman pope).
 

Pangur

Donor
In this TL Henry VIII (Arthur's son) does invade and conquer Ireland in 1540 not for religious reasons but to expand the British empire. Ireland eventually rallies for independence and gets it in the 1940s (contrary to OTL the whole of Ireland including Northern becomes independent) although British-Irish Tensions are in the rise in present day ATL. In fact, a recent British king Richard V had to abdicate in 2004 to his sister the current queen Patricia II due to a scandal involving Irish terrorists. About Oliver Cromwell, he becomes nothing more than a simple unknown British citizen ATL because Puritans never develop (England never becomes Protestant in the first place and loyal to the Roman pope).

and no civil war?
 
and no civil war?

There is a civil war but is different from the OTL English civil war. The war takes place in the late 1700s instead if the 1600s. Basically the two sides are the royalists (supporters of King Henry XI) and the democrats (who want a representative democracy). The royalists with foreign support (such as the HRE) decicively win after three years under Henry XI's leadership. Both sides are led by Catholics although the Protestant minority (and other religious minorities) in Britian overwhelmingly support the democrats.
 
Thank you fellow imperial majesty! I'll be sure to post tomorrow with more stuff from my timeline! Like I said before is there anything in particular you'd like to know, if there is, I'll be sure to post about it.

Thank you fellow Emperor:D. OK a few questions 1. how does protestantism develop in Germany, Switzerland, Scandinavia and the Netherlands without a Protestant England? 2. Does the French and American revolutions (or a form of them) still occur? 3. Does Britain still develop is massive empire?
 
You bring up some good points. England does stay catholic in this timeline and it still is today with a small Protestant minority. England and Spain/HRE remain good friends. In 1536, king Henry VIII of England (Arthur's son) and Charles V team up to conquer France which is successful (France later receives their independence in the late 1700s only to be conquered again in the middle 1800s by King Julian the Great of Britian and become independent finally in the 1920s after the first global war). Also, Henry and Catherine did have children they just died as infants except for Mary so Catherine was able to bear children.

How do you see the conquest of France happening? How do they become independent the first time? How is is conquered again, who is Julian the Great, and what made him great? What caused the global war in the 1920s? And why did the other major players in Europe even ALLOW the huge shift in the balance of power that English-French unifiication would have meant?

You're getting way ahead of yourself :) Slow down, and take us through the steps.
 
Last edited:
Thank you fellow Emperor:D. OK a few questions 1. how does protestantism develop in Germany, Switzerland, Scandinavia and the Netherlands without a Protestant England? 2. Does the French and American revolutions (or a form of them) still occur? 3. Does Britain still develop is massive empire?

These are some really good questions, let me answer them one by one.

1. Protestantism still develops but it is a minority sect and Protestants are still being persecuted in Europe still to this day. Martin Luther still writes his 95 Theses in 1517 and gathers enough followers to create Lutheranism but it is not nearly as successful as in OTL due to the presence of two Catholic superpowers England and Spain/HRE. The majority of Lutherans (the only Protestant sect in this TL) are scattered in Germany, Switzerland (parts of the HRE) and Denmark although all three of these places have Catholic majorities. Calvinism in never developed due to the major unrest in France in the 1530s and the eventual conquest of the nation by the England-Spain/HRE alliance.

2. The French Revolution occurs around the same time it does in OTL (1790s) but instead of a change of government, the French want independence from the British. The French win the war and become an independent republic. The British lost because they just were recovering from a civil war as described in one of my earlier posts. Unfortunately for the French, Julian I of Britian conquers them back only 7 decades later. However following the First Global War in 1924, the British give the French independence for good in return for helping them defeat the Russian Empire. The American Revolution does not occur as we know it. The British North American Colonies (North American Federation or NAF) are still under the British crown but they have their own parliament and prime minister. It is almost similar to Canada in OTL.

3. Britian does not only develop a massive empire but they continue to hold onto it just like in OTL. In continental Europe they control England and Wales (Scotland and all of Ireland are independent), as well as parts if France including Calais, and Belgium. The British crown also controls the NAF as mentioned above although it is practically independent, 3/4 of Africa, almost all of South and Southeast Asia, Australia and New Zealand as well as the entire Carribesn and almost all pacific islands.

I hope I answered your questions well enough your majesty. :)
 
Well......you have not yet explained the hows and whys. I'm not asking you to do them all in one single post :) But right now, all you've given us, is a summary of the events of the TL - why don't you start writing the TL itself? :)

Start from the beginning, go through causes and effect....and you'll have written yourself a TL :)
 
How do you see the conquest of France happening? How do they become independent the first time? How is is conquered again, who is Julian the Great, and what made him great? What caused the global war in the 1920s? And why did the other major players in Europe even ALLOW the huge shift in the balance of power that English-French unifiication would have meant?

You're getting way ahead of yourself :) Slow down, and take us through the steps.

France is conquered because (alternate) Henry VIII and Charles V agree to team up in the 1530s. The English attack from the North the Spanish/HRE from the east and west. The two major superpowers begin gobbling up the country little by little for six years before Paris falls to the English in 1542 marking the end of the French for now. France becomes independent for the first time (as a republic) in the 1790s as described in my previous post. It is conquered again by Julian the Great who followed in Henry VIII's footsteps teaming up with the HRE as well as the French citizens who were unhappy with their republican regime (bordering on a dictatorship) and wanted a king back. Julian I of Britain known as "the great" was king from 1845 to 1888, the son and successor of Queen Sophia and the father and predecessor of Richard IV. He is considered by "great" by many for restoring the British Empire's previous land losses such as France and conquering the vast area of South and Southeast Asia as well as Africa Britain still controls today. The British economy was also prosperous under his reign causing the number of the rich to climb thus creating the "Age of Extravagance." The First Global war fought 1919-1924 was over growing Russian aggression (just like the growing German aggression in WWI) and was immediately triggered by Russian invasion of Bohemia (an eastern territory of the HRE). The war was global because Russia formed an alliance with The Chinese Empire which invaded Japan an ally of Britain and the HRE. And finally it's the English-French Unification. To see how other European countries would allow it let just look at what the other European countries were at the time. First there was the HRE/Spain which was England's best friend at the time and conquered France along with it. Portugal was also a major ally of England and the HRE/Spain. Scotland is the only other European country who was sympathetic toward the French but they feared of getting involved or else England might gobble them up for they controlled all of Ireland, England and Wales.
Russia and other Eastern European nations were too far away to intervene and had to just accept the truth.

It is very late now but I promise to write the actual TL starting tomorrow.
 

Flubber

Banned
Please listen to what Superaquaspiderbatman is trying to tell you. You're tackling far too much far too soon. You've got over 400 years of "history" plotted out between 1502 and the 1920s, you're either killing or ignoring butterflies by the billions, and you haven't even handled the details associated with the first changes you've made.

Case in point: Assuming the UK ITTL will become the world's premier colonial power as it did in the OTL is - at the moment - completely unfounded.

Dial everything back and concentrate on King Arthur's first decade on the throne. People then will be far less incredulous and far more able to help you.
 
And if you start off with the idea of that England is a superpower in the 16th century, be prepared to take some stiff criticism.
 
Dial everything back and concentrate on King Arthur's first decade on the throne. People then will be far less incredulous and far more able to help you.

This :)

And yes, it's difficult. That's why I haven't written a TL yet, even though I have many good ideas for TLs...simply because I can't grasp having to do the kind of meticulous work needed for a good TL, at the moment.
 
Top