What if Queen Victoria was never born?
- Thread starter Justinian Girgis
- Start date
If Victoria was never born then after George III’s death the succession would be as follows:
- George IV, son of George III. Reigns from 1820 until 1830 with no surviving legitimate issue.
- William IV, son of George III. Reigns from 1830 until 1837 with no surviving legitimate issue.
- Ernest Augustus I, son of George III. Reigns from 1837 until 1851.
- George V, son of Ernst Augustus 1, Reigns from 1851 until 1878
- Ernest Augustus II, son of George V. Reigns from 1878 to 1923.
- Ernest Augustus III, son of Ernest Augustus II. Reigns from 1923 to 1953.
- Ernest Augustus IV, son of Ernest Augustus III. Reigns from 1953 until 1987.
- Ernest Augustus V, son of Ernest Augustus IV. Reigns from 1987 until the present day.
Hanover is under personal union with Britain, probably doesn't end up as Prussia's province
WanderingProfessor
Banned
There would be a lot of butterflies concerning the British Royal Family and 19th century geopolitics. For one thing, the Victorian Age would be known as the Georgian Age as a reference to George IV.
George IV was succeeded by his brother William so that wouldn't be the case.
I'll accept up to Ernest Augustus II but after that the knockons from them being the monarch kick in, different marriages under different circumstances. For example Ernest Augustus II met his wife whilst visiting Bertie (who wouldn't exist here). They may still meet and marry but different circumstances. Even Ernest Augustus II may well choose a different regnal name, ( quite possibly George VI) and I'm not totally convinced that Ernest Augustus I would reign under that name, but he was a contrary stubborn b****r so may well have done.
I would see it as even more likely - King Ernest was a jerk with autocratic tendencies, he knew Parliament and his citizens didnt like him, but Parliament rules whilst the monarch simply reigns. If Parliament decides that Hanover isn't worth it's time or manpower in the Austro-Prussian War, then Hanover still gets absorbed into Prussia.
VVD0D95
Banned
I don’t think they’d allow that sort of humiliation to the monarch. This was before people stopped caring about such things
Spot on, I provided this list based purely on the OTL marriages and births but I agree that with this PoD things would change where marriages are concerned etc.I think there's a possibility Ernst Augustus II might still marry Thyra of Denmark even without the Edward VII connection, though I wonder if Thyra's pregnancy by Marcher would be considered far more of a stumbling block for a marriage with the British Sovereign whereas it wasn't when she was "only" marrying an exiled Crown Prince.
Certainly the regnal names would have to change if anti-German sentiment continues to rise in the UK as it did in the OTL.
Off the top of my head:
1837: Ernst Augustus becomes King upon the death of William IV.
1848: After frequent clashes with the government and committed to his autocratic ways and lavish spending, he is deposed when the 1848 Revolutions reach the UK and take hold. A somewhat shaky Second Commonwealth is declared under a radical government. Ernst Augustus flees to Hanover.
1855: The Second Commonwealth collapses, a pro-monarchy Tory party takes office and invites Prince George, 2nd Duke of Cambridge to return to England as King.
You could then have a situation where Ernst Augustus refuses to be pushed out of Hanover declaring himself as King. The Prussians support him, the British let Hanover go because a) They never much cared for it anyway and b) they've far too much going on anyway and can't afford the man power to seize it back. It also risks a war with Prussia they probably wouldn't see as viable in the circumstances. It's only a personal union after all. The Prussians then turn on Ernst Augustus and nab Hanover for themselves a little earlier than in the OTL, pushing that branch of the BRF into exile in Austria.
As for 1855, a condition could have been set whereby George can only take the throne if he gives up Lady Sarah Fairbrother in order to marry and produce a legitimate heir. He either agrees but keeps Lady Sarah as his mistress or he declines and continues to live abroad. With a distinct lack of options, parliament won't accept Augusta because she's married to Frederick William of Mecklenburg-Strelitz (with further opposition coming from a possible rise in anti-German sentiment following the annexation of Hanover). They turn instead to the youngest Cambridge child, the 22 year old Princess Mary Adelaide as the new Queen Regnant who becomes Queen Mary III.
But I'm just brainstorming here over my morning coffee!
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For me is far likelier seeing Ernest August II marrying either Alix or Dagmar with the other ending in Russia as OTL.
I think there's a possibility Ernst Augustus II might still marry Thyra of Denmark even without the Edward VII connection, though I wonder if Thyra's pregnancy by Marcher would be considered far more of a stumbling block for a marriage with the British Sovereign whereas it wasn't when she was "only" marrying an exiled Crown Prince.
In 1848 the likeliest thing to happen if Ernest August I is deposed for being too autocratic is a regency for the younger Ernest August after the deposition of his grandfather (with his father excluded for his disability). Still butterflies would start to affect George’s life pretty early so is possible who he will live differently, never lose his sight and married differently
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Why would George be excluded due to disability? I understand that this was common in some continental succession laws, but not in the British?
VVD0D95
Banned
Unsure that Ernest would be deposed Tbf or that a George who grows up in britain will grow up with the same views as he did otl.
This raises a good point. In my research for my own TL I've had to look into this issue and there's no suggestion that a George V (Cumberland) would be excluded due to his disability.
There were many in Hanover who wanted him excluded there but as Isabella alludes to, this was perhaps more inspired by the views he shared with his father rather than problems with his sight. The OTL King Ernest Augustus made it clear that George would succeed him regardless and that his son's sight problems would in no way hinder his ability. There'd be no reason he couldn't succeed in Britain due to his sight problems either, though practically he may require a kind of permanent informal regency whereby other members of the Royal Family represent him at things like the State Opening of Parliament.
With the POD I suggested you pretty much have to accept two premises to get a King or Queen Cambridge. 1) That the Revolutions of 1848 hit Britain pretty hard, which I think you could argue it would given Ernest's very conservative views and general lack of popularity with the public that would go back way before his accession. 2) That (as @VVD0D95 points out), his son would have to share Ernest's views to that much of a degree that parliament wishes to remove both Cumberland princes. It's not impossible, it seems plausible to me but as I said when I brainstormed that idea, you'd need to put in a lot of ground work to make it happen that way with lots of clashes between the Cumberlands and parliament before 1848.
VVD0D95
Banned
I’m also not sure Ernest would be as conservative as king. It’s one thing to be thay conservative as a prince, but when you’re wearing the crown, survival tends to kick in. At least for Hanoverians It did. Ernest may well use his influence to get politicians and lords to vote for his views but I can’t see him actively shooting Himself in the foot.
He was notoriously anti-Catholic emancipation, though, and all opposition politicians would need to do is to mobilise that anti-Ermest sentiment were he to back any anti emancipation measures and we'd end up with Peterloo 2.0 and an Irish Revolution, even an attempt to breakaway the northern regions - a Manchester Commune, perhaps?
VVD0D95
Banned
Yes but by the time he’s on the throne, Catholic emancipation has been law for five years. He’s not going to tamper with that.
He's also more likely to throw a tantrum, stack the Lords in his favour and block any further progression, which would probably have much the same effect as regressive policies