What if ME109Z as a replacement for the Bf110 in 1941?

[Deleted member 1487]

http://www.luft46.com/mess/me109z.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_F-82_Twin_Mustang

IOTL Messerschmitt proposed a 'twin' Me109 as a cheaper replacement for the Bf110 in 1941, only getting permission in 1942 and then having their prototype destroyed in a USAAF bombing raid in 1943, which led to the program being cancelled; IOTL the US successfully produced and fielded the F-82, a twinned P-51H with pretty great success, which proved the concept could have worked in practice.

So what if the Me109Z was proposed as a back up to the Me210 project and ready to go in 1941 as the Me210 flops? How well could it have done as a replacement and how many more could have been made given that the Me109Z used 80% of the parts for the existing Me109F? Performance was FAR greater than the Bf110 or even Me210 using the same engines and would have had much heavier firepower. The only potential issue would have been getting a radar pod to work with the German airborne radar systems, as the one that ended up working with the F-82 was based on the smaller, more advanced US cavity magnetron systems.

For the POD rather than phasing the Bf110 back in after the failure of the Me210, the Me10Z is ready to go and just ramps up using mostly existing Me109F parts.

 

[pjmidd]

Well , I'd give the performance estimates a big pinch of salt as I don't think it every flew, better than the Me210 no problem but 460 mph in 1941 seems excessive . To use it as a night fighter you would need to add a second crew member just like the F-82 did so would need some work and as you noted the German radar would have big issues.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Well , I'd give the performance estimates a big pinch of salt as I don't think it every flew, better than the Me210 no problem but 460 mph in 1941 seems excessive . To use it as a night fighter you would need to add a second crew member just like the F-82 did so would need some work and as you noted the German radar would have big issues.

The second crew member would require less work, as the second cockpit wouldn't be covered with sheet metal and a fuel tank, but the question is the radar pod being able to work with 'stag antlers'....or perhaps if you could just mount something like it directly in the middle wing spar. I'm guessing the performance estimate is without any external drag with weapons pods and perhaps with a MW-50 system. Of course that estimate was for 1943, not 1941, so IOTL 1941 it would probably be closer to 450mph or less. The ME109F4 in 1941 had a top speed of 418 mph according to German wikipedia.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109#Bf_109_F

 

[thaddeus]

my favorite POD the LW build this aircraft (or would it properly be considered a variant?) although IMO they would still revive the 110 after having been burned and for aircraft they desired 2 or more crew. (since they had recon version as well as already mentioned night fighter)

optimally they would not add co-pilot for 109Z or laden down with ever increasing arms (albeit more than single fuselage) but strive for speed and altitude?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

my favorite POD the LW build this aircraft (or would it properly be considered a variant?) although IMO they would still revive the 110 after having been burned and for aircraft they desired 2 or more crew. (since they had recon version as well as already mentioned night fighter)

optimally they would not add co-pilot for 109Z or laden down with ever increasing arms (albeit more than single fuselage) but strive for speed and altitude?

The 109Z was supposed to be a heavy interceptor and fighter-bomber, so it could have easily done everything the Bf110 did, but better, except perhaps for being a night fighter only due to the radar equipment. For all but the night fighting they'd really only need 1 crew and would have a cheaper, fast, longer ranged (on internal fuel) aircraft with greater firepower.

 

[thaddeus]

The 109Z was supposed to be a heavy interceptor and fighter-bomber, so it could have easily done everything the Bf110 did, but better, except perhaps for being a night fighter only due to the radar equipment. For all but the night fighting they'd really only need 1 crew and would have a cheaper, fast, longer ranged (on internal fuel) aircraft with greater firepower.

we're only quibbling over a few hundred(s) aircraft at the tail end of its production run as I'm certain we agree ME-410 never appears?

wonder what else gets scrapped? or built?

 

[tomo pauk]

...

So what if the Me109Z was proposed as a back up to the Me210 project and ready to go in 1941 as the Me210 flops? How well could it have done as a replacement and how many more could have been made given that the Me109Z used 80% of the parts for the existing Me109F? Performance was FAR greater than the Bf110 or even Me210 using the same engines and would have had much heavier firepower. The only potential issue would have been getting a radar pod to work with the German airborne radar systems, as the one that ended up working with the F-82 was based on the smaller, more advanced US cavity magnetron systems.
...

I'm all for the 109Z. Talk about almost 3-4 times the engine power as it was on the Westland Whirlwind, on about same size and on thinner wing. Plenty of potential for major firepower while still offering excellent speed and rate of climb. I'd go with 2 crew members all the way. NF version can go with antler antennae and still be faster than Mosquito.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I'm all for the 109Z. Talk about almost 3-4 times the engine power as it was on the Westland Whirlwind, on about same size and on thinner wing. Plenty of potential for major firepower while still offering excellent speed and rate of climb. I'd go with 2 crew members all the way. NF version can go with antler antennae and still be faster than Mosquito.

Yeah I was thinking this would be the Mosquito chaser and perhaps even Wild Boar preventer. Even very conservatively they could mount 3x 20mm cannons (30mm if you're ambitious) in the nose motor cannon layout + centerline wing mount, plus 2x 13mm guns in the fuselage mounts per OTL. That already makes it more heavily armed than the Bf110, while being FAR faster and cleaner. In 1941-43 if they didn't have to deal with escorts they could even make the delayed bomb dropped on a bomb box idea work.

we're only quibbling over a few hundred(s) aircraft at the tail end of its production run as I'm certain we agree ME-410 never appears?

wonder what else gets scrapped? or built?

You mean Bf110? IIRC thousands were built after 1941. Estimates for Me210 production opportunity costs amounted to 2000 aircraft lost. Yes, I'd say if the 109Z is a performer than the 410 never appears and the Db603 engines are either not necessary or are used for an upgraded 109Z (there was a Jumo 213 engined model planned). Nothing else needs to be scrapped or built (other than perhaps the Ar210/410 and HE219) if the 109Z plans out for all roles as intended.

 

[tomo pauk]

Yeah I was thinking this would be the Mosquito chaser and perhaps even Wild Boar preventer. Even very conservatively they could mount 3x 20mm cannons (30mm if you're ambitious) in the nose motor cannon layout + centerline wing mount, plus 2x 13mm guns in the fuselage mounts per OTL. That already makes it more heavily armed than the Bf110, while being FAR faster and cleaner. In 1941-43 if they didn't have to deal with escorts they could even make the delayed bomb dropped on a bomb box idea work.

IIRC the cowl MGs were to be deleted from the 109Z. I'd go for at least 4 cannons, two of whom in center wing, or the single MK 103 + two MG 151/20. In case the escorts are not issue, add another pair of 20mm, in/under the outer wings.

You mean Bf110? IIRC thousands were built after 1941. Estimates for Me210 production opportunity costs amounted to 2000 aircraft lost. Yes, I'd say if the 109Z is a performer than the 410 never appears and the Db603 engines are either not necessary or are used for an upgraded 109Z (there was a Jumo 213 engined model planned). Nothing else needs to be scrapped or built (other than perhaps the Ar210/410 and HE219) if the 109Z plans out for all roles as intended.

To be axed: obviously Me 210/410 + most if not all Bf 110s produced after 1942 (engines to the 109s and Fw 190, ship some to Italy); He 219 (engines to Fw 190); the Arado 2-engined jobs (have them produce either 109s or Fw 190s or the jet A/C).

 

[Deleted member 1487]

IIRC the cowl MGs were to be deleted from the 109Z. I'd go for at least 4 cannons, two of whom in center wing, or the single MK 103 + two MG 151/20. In case the escorts are not issue, add another pair of 20mm, in/under the outer wings.

To be axed: obviously Me 210/410 + most if not all Bf 110s produced after 1942 (engines to the 109s and Fw 190, ship some to Italy); He 219 (engines to Fw 190); the Arado 2-engined jobs (have them produce either 109s or Fw 190s or the jet A/C).

Assuming this and a mid-1942 combat entry date for the Me109Z...what happens in the air war? How many more aircraft can be produced?

 

[Coiler]

Assuming this and a mid-1942 combat entry date for the Me109Z...what happens in the air war?

The Allies win.

 

[thaddeus]

You mean Bf110? IIRC thousands were built after 1941. Estimates for Me210 production opportunity costs amounted to 2000 aircraft lost. Yes, I'd say if the 109Z is a performer than the 410 never appears and the Db603 engines are either not necessary or are used for an upgraded 109Z (there was a Jumo 213 engined model planned). Nothing else needs to be scrapped or built (other than perhaps the Ar210/410 and HE219) if the 109Z plans out for all roles as intended.

was thinking end (for good) BF-110 production in 1942, as there were delays with every aircraft and they might not want to get caught with another disaster such as 210? (so the difference between 1941 and 1942 end date, with about 500-odd built in 1942)

Assuming this and a mid-1942 combat entry date for the Me109Z...what happens in the air war? How many more aircraft can be produced?

they were certainly expert on rebuilding aircraft also and the largest number of airframes would have been BF-109s?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

The Allies win.

There it is!

 

[Coiler]

There it is!

Ok, more detail.

Like with any other minor Axis equipment POD, the improved individual piece of equipment may cause slightly higher casualties in the short-run. May, because as something that never entered service, we don't know if the 109Z had some weakness that might have "evened" things out. Then (when 1944 rolls around, assuming no other butterflies) when Allied production revs up and they solve their issues while the Germans have theirs amplified, the 109Zs get walloped just as hard as every other German aircraft.

 

[tomo pauk]

Assuming this and a mid-1942 combat entry date for the Me109Z...what happens in the air war? How many more aircraft can be produced?

The surplus is anyone's guess.
In the air, war is more costly for the Allies. The 109Z should be able to meet the P-47 on equal terms, and LW shoul have had far more of performer A/C at disposal. I'd ship the Fw 190A to East and South, and with extra engines the Fw 190C might see the light of the day by winter of 1943/44.
The P-47s with much more casualties in 1943 will mean less of experienced pilots for 1944 for P-51s.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Ok, more detail.

Like with any other minor Axis equipment POD, the improved individual piece of equipment may cause slightly higher casualties in the short-run. May, because as something that never entered service, we don't know if the 109Z had some weakness that might have "evened" things out. Then (when 1944 rolls around, assuming no other butterflies) when Allied production revs up and they solve their issues while the Germans have theirs amplified, the 109Zs get walloped just as hard as every other German aircraft.

The issue with the 'Allies win in the end' response to this POD is the issue of how close the USAAF got to calling off daylight strategic bombing or facing a serious congressional inquiry and yanking of funds to stop it. So if we are talking about enough damage inflicting in the critical period, 1943, then there might be substantial changes in the Allied conduct in the war, though not necessarily changing the eventual outcome, might have substantial butterflies.

The surplus is anyone's guess.
In the air, war is more costly for the Allies. The 109Z should be able to meet the P-47 on equal terms, and LW shoul have had far more of performer A/C at disposal. I'd ship the Fw 190A to East and South, and with extra engines the Fw 190C might see the light of the day by winter of 1943/44.
The P-47s with much more casualties in 1943 will mean less of experienced pilots for 1944 for P-51s.

Do you know how many P-47 pilots switched to the P-51D?
One major issue is with the increased number of available aircraft and much more survivable and deadly heavy interceptor you could see substantially more Luftwaffe pilots surviving, not using the flawed 'Big Wing' attacks, and potentially enough damage to the USAAF strategic bomber force to call off daylight bombing over Germany for a while, which would have a huge impact.

 

[Dynasoar]

One aspect of the twin 109 is the markedly more stable ground handling of the landing gear configuration. Here I refer to the widespread main gear and the two tailwheels. Since, as the F-82 was considered as easy to land and takeoff as a tricycle landing gear ship, the 109Z should greatly reduce the 30% takeoff and landing attrition rate of the 109 documented in another thread. If this is accurate, the true cost of a "Z" would be substantially less than two '109s.

Dynasoar

 

[sonofpegasus]

As depicted this twin 109 uses four undercarriage legs, whereas the twin Mustang only used two. If it is practical to dispense with the two inner wheel assemblies on the ME109Z, this not only saves weight but frees up space in the center section for fuel, ammo and radar kit.

 

[NoMommsen]

AFAIK the Twin Mustang was the only plane that realized the concept of a "paired/doubled" fighter into an actually used fighting plane.

IIRC the Me-110th main prob in action (beside some others) was its baaad agility.

So : how "good" actually was the Twin Mustang solution as a fighter airplane ?
Was its agility comparable to a "single" Mustang ? ... comparable or even better than the purpose built P-38 Lightning ?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

As depicted this twin 109 uses four undercarriage legs, whereas the twin Mustang only used two. If it is practical to dispense with the two inner wheel assemblies on the ME109Z, this not only saves weight but frees up space in the center section for fuel, ammo and radar kit.

They'd have to change the landing gear to make the outer wheels bigger and stronger, which means part and fuselage changes and reduces economies of scale; one of the advantages of the Me109Z was that it used over 80% common parts with the regular Me109. While there might have been advantages to having one bigger wheel and reworking the layout of the landing gear, it would have reduced part commonality and meant you would need a separate production/assembly line for the base fuselage.

For example the F-82 used different/larger landing gear than their base P-51H parent:

AFAIK the Twin Mustang was the only plane that realized the concept of a "paired/doubled" fighter into an actually used fighting plane.

IIRC the Me-110th main prob in action (beside some others) was its baaad agility.

So : how "good" actually was the Twin Mustang solution as a fighter airplane ?
Was its agility comparable to a "single" Mustang ? ... comparable or even better than the purpose built P-38 Lightning ?

The Me110 also had the problem of much higher drag and lower speed compared to the Me109Z...plus the minor issue of requiring totally different parts and assembly lines from the Me109Z. One big production advantage is that the ME109Z is mostly the same as the regular 109F, so economies of scale are potentially massive, especially as the Me109 was already known for being very cheap and easy to make. Add in that the twinned model was more aerodynamic, fast, lighter, had greater range, great firepower potential, and could use only one crew member, it seems like a no-brainer.

The F-82 was actually a fantastic plan when it fought in Korea, even shooting down Soviet jet aircraft, plus being able to ground attack very effectively. It was a true multi-role, all weather aircraft, the only flaw being that so few were made that there were never enough of them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_F-82_Twin_Mustang#Far_East_Air_Forces

The F-82 was faster than the P-38, had more firepower, greater versatility, greater range, and was IIRC cheaper.