What if Margaret Beaufort was born a boy?

[CaptainShadow]

Except he is not his Uncle or Father. He is still competent here, so he could redeem himself. He won't take arms against the Yorks (or not officially at least) until he comes of age, so in around 1460.

And? Prestige, unpopularity etc are for all intents and purposes "inherited" from the predecessor and associated with the activities of other dynasts-neither of which point towards his redepemption, and if the Dorset branch still "betrays" Edward, he's as good as dead.

And what redemption? If he's like otl Margaret he sits on his estates, plots, and is an overbearing figure when in power. None of which point towards regaining popularity.

And as above, if he's not executed in 1460-considering the deep hatred between the Yorks and Beauforts he likely is-he's executed in 1471. If he's not executed in 1471 he's executed in 1483.

 

[RedKing]

And what redemption? If he's like otl Margaret he sits on his estates, plots, and is an overbearing figure when in power. None of which point towards regaining popularity.

No one said he’d be a word for word male Margaret. I’d imagine he’d be decent at administration and diplomacy.

And as above, if he's not executed in 1460-considering the deep hatred between the Yorks and Beauforts he likely is-he's executed in 1471. If he's not executed in 1471 he's executed in 1483.

Why though? Chances are he won’t take arms against Richard until 1460, executing him would make Richard look like a tyrant.

 

[Tyler96]

Except he is not his Uncle or Father. He is still competent here, so he could redeem himself. He won't take arms against the Yorks (or not officially at least) until he comes of age, so in around 1460.

Still plenty of battles in 1460-1461 in which he could be killed.

 

[RedKing]

Still plenty of battles in 1460-1461 in which he could be killed.

True, but I could Henry either staying neutral or fleeing to Europe.

 

[Jonathan]

True, but I could Henry either staying neutral or fleeing to Europe.

Similar to OTL Henry VII fleeing to Brittany.

John Beaufort, 1st Duke of Somerset, 3rd Earl of Somerset (25/3/1404–30/5/1444) m. 1441, Margaret Beauchamp (c.1410 –3/6/1482)

John Beaufort [1] 2nd Duke of Somerset (31/5/1442–29/6/1509)​

[1] He would be named John, after his father, paternal grandfather, John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset(1371-1410), great-grandfather John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster and maternal grandfather Sir John Beauchamp, 3rd Baron Beauchamp of Bletsoe.

Potential brides:
Katherine Neville (1442–1504) granddaughter of Joan Beaufort, making her a cousin. Katherine was a daughters of Richard Neville, 5th Earl of Salisbury, and the sister of military commander Richard Neville, 16th Earl of Warwick.
Elizabeth of York (1444-1503). The third daughter of Richard Plantagenet, 3rd Duke of York (a great-grandson of King Edward III) and Cecily Neville, her brothers were King Edward IV and of King Richard III. IOTL she married John de la Pole, 2nd Duke of Suffolk, so this marriage isn’t ASB.
Mary Woodville (1443–1481) or Jacquetta Woodville (1444–1509) daughters of Richard Woodville, 1st Earl Rivers and Jacquetta of Luxembourg. Both are sister of Edward IV's Queen consort, Elizabeth Woodville.

 

[Kynan]

Could he marry the daughter of Catherine of Valois and Owen Tudor as an ATL illusion to Margaret’s own marriage? Margaret Tudor died young OTL, but since she’s not really got any info on her at all, she might be an interesting blank slate, particularly if Henry VI is looking to bring up his Welsh siblings. Just tossing it out there.

 

[RedKing]

Could he marry the daughter of Catherine of Valois and Owen Tudor as an ATL illusion to Margaret’s own marriage? Margaret Tudor died young OTL, but since she’s not really got any info on her at all, she might be an interesting blank slate, particularly if Henry VI is looking to bring up his Welsh siblings. Just tossing it out there.

That would be fun! She’s also a prestigious? match since she is the niece of the French King and sister of the English King.

 

[isabella]

Could he marry the daughter of Catherine of Valois and Owen Tudor as an ATL illusion to Margaret’s own marriage? Margaret Tudor died young OTL, but since she’s not really got any info on her at all, she might be an interesting blank slate, particularly if Henry VI is looking to bring up his Welsh siblings. Just tossing it out there.

Age gap is likely too big. Assuming who Margaret was the child who caused Catherine‘s death in childbirth she would be 7 years and half older than Beaufort.

Similar to OTL Henry VII fleeing to Brittany.

John Beaufort, 1st Duke of Somerset, 3rd Earl of Somerset (25/3/1404–30/5/1444) m. 1441, Margaret Beauchamp (c.1410 –3/6/1482)

John Beaufort [1] 2nd Duke of Somerset (31/5/1442–29/6/1509)​

[1] He would be named John, after his father, paternal grandfather, John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset(1371-1410), great-grandfather John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster and maternal grandfather Sir John Beauchamp, 3rd Baron Beauchamp of Bletsoe.

Potential brides:
Katherine Neville (1442–1504) granddaughter of Joan Beaufort, making her a cousin. Katherine was a daughters of Richard Neville, 5th Earl of Salisbury, and the sister of military commander Richard Neville, 16th Earl of Warwick.
Elizabeth of York (1444-1503). The third daughter of Richard Plantagenet, 3rd Duke of York (a great-grandson of King Edward III) and Cecily Neville, her brothers were King Edward IV and of King Richard III. IOTL she married John de la Pole, 2nd Duke of Suffolk, so this marriage isn’t ASB.
Mary Woodville (1443–1481) or Jacquetta Woodville (1444–1509) daughters of Richard Woodville, 1st Earl Rivers and Jacquetta of Luxembourg. Both are sister of Edward IV's Queen consort, Elizabeth Woodville.

Elizabeth of York no way. The Suffolk match at least made sense , the young Beaufort would be a total nonsense (and we do will NOT have any plausible reason for that match).
Katherine Neville also is out of question. She was married in OTL to allies of her father and brother, so unlikely she will be married NOT only in the rival side but to the nephew of her family’s main enemy.

One of the Woodville girls sound more likely as she would tie Beaufort to the new Queen consort, like Buckingham with Katherine, breaking his ties with the Lancastrian.

 

[RedKing]

Similar to OTL Henry VII fleeing to Brittany.

John Beaufort, 1st Duke of Somerset, 3rd Earl of Somerset (25/3/1404–30/5/1444) m. 1441, Margaret Beauchamp (c.1410 –3/6/1482)

John Beaufort [1] 2nd Duke of Somerset (31/5/1442–29/6/1509)​

[1] He would be named John, after his father, paternal grandfather, John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset(1371-1410), great-grandfather John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster and maternal grandfather Sir John Beauchamp, 3rd Baron Beauchamp of Bletsoe.

Potential brides:
Katherine Neville (1442–1504) granddaughter of Joan Beaufort, making her a cousin. Katherine was a daughters of Richard Neville, 5th Earl of Salisbury, and the sister of military commander Richard Neville, 16th Earl of Warwick.
Elizabeth of York (1444-1503). The third daughter of Richard Plantagenet, 3rd Duke of York (a great-grandson of King Edward III) and Cecily Neville, her brothers were King Edward IV and of King Richard III. IOTL she married John de la Pole, 2nd Duke of Suffolk, so this marriage isn’t ASB.
Mary Woodville (1443–1481) or Jacquetta Woodville (1444–1509) daughters of Richard Woodville, 1st Earl Rivers and Jacquetta of Luxembourg. Both are sister of Edward IV's Queen consort, Elizabeth Woodville.

Definitely, if he survives he’ll pull a Henry VII. Where it gets interesting is that he could introduce Salic Law since he is a direct male descendant of Edward III.

 

[isabella]

Definitely, if he survives he’ll pull a Henry VII. Where it gets interesting is that he could introduce Salic Law since he is a direct male descendant of Edward III.

No way as he will be much older and so he will be forced to choose a side BEFORE the Readeption and will be either killed or captured in the Lancastrian defeat, that unless he choose to side with the Yorkist (who would disqualify him from claiming the crown) but in that case would be likely a victim of Richard III.

 

[RedKing]

No way as he will be much older

I guess, though it would’ve been fun.

he will be forced to choose a side BEFORE the Readeption and will be either killed or captured in the Lancastrian defeat

Or he could pull a Tudor and flee, considering Margaret’s instinct in OTL was to run it could happen here too.

the Yorkist (who would disqualify him from claiming the crown) but in that case would be likely a victim of Richard III.

Or he could become the figurehead of opposition to Richard III.

 

[isabella]

I guess, though it would’ve been fun.

Or he could pull a Tudor and flee, considering Margaret’s instinct in OTL was to run it could happen here too.

Or he could become the figurehead of opposition to Richard III.

He can NOT. He would need to fight or being discredited forever. Sure he can have Oxford and Jasper’s luck but the would be a much more preeminent commander than them being the head of the Beauforts.
If Richard III still take the throne Beaufort would be either dead or a Yorkist (married to one of Elizabeth Woodville’s sisters) and in the latter case will be killed by Richard.

 

[Jonathan]

Elizabeth of York no way. The Suffolk match at least made sense , the young Beaufort would be a total nonsense (and we do will NOT have any plausible reason for that match).

IOTL, John of Suffolk, had not succeeded to his titles when his father was executed on 2 May 1450 and the political successor of his father IOTL was Edmund, 2nd Duke of Somerset, who in TTL is the uncle and regent to John (Margaret) 2nd duke of Somerset. If Edmund can push favours, this match is plausible to unite the Lancaster and York claim.

Katherine Neville also is out of question. She was married in OTL to allies of her father and brother, so unlikely she will be married NOT only in the rival side but to the nephew of her family’s main enemy.

We have no way of knowing if the new duke of Somerset, wouldn’t be an ally, but we do know he would be a leading figure and a highly sort after marriage.

One of the Woodville girls sound more likely as she would tie Beaufort to the new Queen consort, like Buckingham with Katherine, breaking his ties with the Lancastrian.

This was my conclusion as well as Edward wanting closer allies.

 

[Jonathan]

No way as he will be much older and so he will be forced to choose a side BEFORE the Readeption and will be either killed or captured in the Lancastrian defeat, that unless he choose to side with the Yorkist (who would disqualify him from claiming the crown) but in that case would be likely a victim of Richard III.

He doesn’t have to flee as a coward. Travelling to English owner land in France would be seen as assisting the king and country, in securing all territory, while being out of reach from the king. If he truly believes his life is in danger due to his rightful claim, the French king would offer refuge at court, similar to Richard de la Pole or Perkin Warbeck, being seen as as a more favourable ally and prospect for an English king than Richard III.

But it is an option.
Although if he is married to a Woodville he could raise an army and attack Richard earlier claiming that Richard killed John’s wife’s nephews and rightful kings.

 

[Jonathan]

will be killed by Richard.

Not if John Beaufort is as military minded as OTL son Henry VII.

 

[isabella]

IOTL, John of Suffolk, had not succeeded to his titles when his father was executed on 2 May 1450 and the political successor of his father IOTL was Edmund, 2nd Duke of Somerset, who in TTL is the uncle and regent to John (Margaret) 2nd duke of Somerset. If Edmund can push favours, this match is plausible to unite the Lancaster and York claim.

York would NEVER accept that and the match would unite nothing. The heir of the Lancasters is Edward of Westminster and almost everyone would put York in the line of succession after him.

We have no way of knowing if the new duke of Somerset, wouldn’t be an ally, but we do know he would be a leading figure and a highly sort after marriage.

NOT for the Nevilles who are already enemies of Edmund Beaufort.

This was my conclusion as well as Edward wanting closer allies.

He doesn’t have to flee as a coward. Travelling to English owner land in France would be seen as assisting the king and country, in securing all territory, while being out of reach from the king. If he truly believes his life is in danger due to his rightful claim, the French king would offer refuge at court, similar to Richard de la Pole or Perkin Warbeck, being seen as as a more favourable ally and prospect for an English king than Richard III.

But it is an option.
Although if he is married to a Woodville he could raise an army and attack Richard earlier claiming that Richard killed John’s wife’s nephews and rightful kings.

Again, if he is married to a Woodville either he is close enough to Richard to support him or he is an enemy to eliminate at the moment of his takeover.

Not if John Beaufort is as military minded as OTL son Henry VII.

His military talent would be useless as he would NEVER be in the right situation for trying an armed takeover of England

 

[RedKing]

He can NOT.

Why?

He would need to fight or being discredited forever

If the Lancastrians are defeated and he’s fearing for his life is it really discrediting himself if he flees to France?

Sure he can have Oxford and Jasper’s luck but the would be a much more preeminent commander than them being the head of the Beauforts.

Jasper’s luck was escaping to Brittany and being able to come back and conquer England with his nephew.

If Richard III still take the throne Beaufort would be either dead or a Yorkist (married to one of Elizabeth Woodville’s sisters) and in the latter case will be killed by Richard.

Or if he’s smart he and the Woodvilles take arms against Richard, the minute it’s clear he’s attempting a coup.

 

[RedKing]

I was thinking that may Henry/John Beaufort could try and pull a Buckingham ITTL, assuming Buckingham is in on the plot that makes it much more dangerous since it will be two Dukes against Richard III instead of one.

 

[isabella]

Why?

If the Lancastrians are defeated and he’s fearing for his life is it really discrediting himself if he flees to France?

He will need to fight at least during the Readeption and likely also in the final stages of the precedent war for being able to escape without discrediting himself.

Jasper’s luck was escaping to Brittany and being able to come back and conquer England with his nephew.

Or if he’s smart he and the Woodvilles take arms against Richard, the minute it’s clear he’s attempting a coup.

They would be unable to do anything once Richard has the King, Rivers and Grey in his hands and before that they believed who Gloucester was loyal.

 

[RedKing]

He will need to fight at least during the Readeption and likely also in the final stages of the precedent war for being able to escape without discrediting himself.

TBH, he most likely would. If he survives he could go either the Henry VII route or try and reconcile with York and later join up with Buckingham (assuming he isn’t butterflied) and try to overthrow Richard III (assuming he still usurps the throne).

The only problem is if he’s going to try and pull a Henry VII he’ll need Edwardian Support, but he can only get that if he has a son of the right age to marry Elizabeth of York and is available.

They would be unable to do anything once Richard has the King, Rivers and Grey in his hands and before that they believed who Gloucester was loyal.

True, maybe he and Buckingham could try a Buckingham like Plot ITTL, except this time offering to marry one of their sons to Elizabeth of York?