What if Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester, didn't marry Jacqueline, Countess of Hainault?

[RedKing]

As the title, says what if this (idiotic IMO) match never happened? For context, on his deathbed Henry V told his two surviving brothers, John and Humphrey that the Anglo-Burgundian alliance was crucial to maintaining England's holdings in France, and asked them to honour it. John respected this wish and married the Duke of Burgundy's sister Anne. Humphrey on the other hand didn't and (illegally) married Jacqueline, Countess of Hainault, and proceeded to make war on the Duke of Brabant with her. This offended, Philippe and proved problematic for the Anglo-Burgundian alliance, playing a big role in the breaking of it.

It seems as though the Anglo-Burgundian alliance was shaky from the get go, but might it last longer here since Humphrey won't have soured relations? How would this effect the war in France? Might Henry VI have a more stable reign? Who does Humphrey marry instead?

 

[kasumigenx]

As the title, says what if this (idiotic IMO) match never happened? For context, on his deathbed Henry V told his two surviving brothers, John and Humphrey that the Anglo-Burgundian alliance was crucial to maintaining England's holdings in France, and asked them to honour it. John respected this wish and married the Duke of Burgundy's sister Anne. Humphrey on the other hand didn't and (illegally) married Jacqueline, Countess of Hainault, and proceeded to make war on the Duke of Brabant with her. This offended, Philippe and proved problematic for the Anglo-Burgundian alliance, playing a big role in the breaking of it.

It seems as though the Anglo-Burgundian alliance was shaky from the get go, but might it last longer here since Humphrey won't have soured relations? How would this effect the war in France? Might Henry VI have a more stable reign? Who does Humphrey marry instead?

He can marry the Duchess of Lorraine.

 

[RedKing]

He can marry the Duchess of Lorraine.

Is she available at the time? Wouldn't that still offend Philippe, or did he have no ambitions in the region at the time?

 

[kasumigenx]

Is she available at the time? Wouldn't that still offend Philippe, or did he have no ambitions in the region at the time?

not yet.

 

[RedKing]

not yet.

Ah, okay, that makes the marriage more efficient then, maybe Humphrey could be more lucky with kids then?

 

[kasumigenx]

Ah, okay, that makes the marriage more efficient then, maybe Humphrey could be more lucky with kids then?

and have Rene marry the Countess of Hainault instead.

 

[RedKing]

and have Rene marry the Countess of Hainault instead.

That works then, since as a Frenchmen he would have been an enemy of Philippe anyways.

 

[kasumigenx]

That works then, since as a Frenchmen he would have been an enemy of Philippe anyways.

The POD needs to happen in 1419/1420 timeframe here and Jacqueline marries Rene in 1423 instead.

 

[kasumigenx]

Humphrey of Gloucester m. Isabella of Lorraine 1419

1a. Philippa of Lorraine b. 1422 m. Richard, third duke of York[1]

2a. Mary of Lorraine b. 1430 m. Charles the Bold

3a. Edward of Lorraine b. 1432





Rene I of Naples m. Jacqueline of Hainault

1a. John of Hainault and Anjou b. 1426

2a. Yolande of Hainault b. 1428 m. Louis XI

3a. Margaret of Hainault b. 1430

1. Alternative York matriarch.

 

[CaptainShadow]

proceeded to make war on the Duke of Brabant with her. This offended, Philippe and proved problematic for the Anglo-Burgundian alliance, playing a big role in the breaking of it.

Nope, Bedford cleaned stuff up with Philippe easily. What was problematic though, was the English walk out at Arras.

but might it last longer here since Humphrey won't have soured relations?

No, don't think so.

relations? How would this effect the war in France?

No handover of Anjou probably and Henry marries that Armagnac girl.

France? Might Henry VI have a more stable reign?

Maybe, if Winchester doesn't pack the council with his supporters. Maybe not, if the two uncles feud turns violent due to neither getting a political advantage.

Who does Humphrey marry instead?

His otl second wife seems a fair shout.

He can marry the Duchess of Lorraine.

Don't think so.
@Kellan Sullivan may know more though.

Philippa of Lorraine b. 1422 m. Richard, third duke of York[1]

Not bloody likely, I don't see Neville getting York's wardship butterflied.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Is she available at the time? Wouldn't that still offend Philippe, or did he have no ambitions in the region at the time?

Isabelle was married to René d'Anjou with the aim of having the second-largest landowner in France backing her up (Anjou's lands were second only to the king's IIRC). Why? So that they had a useful counterweight to Burgundy encroaching in the region (wasn't much use though - see the wars of the 1430s), but that was the theory behind it. Which means that a match with Humphrey for Isabelle makes absolutely zero sense.

A more useful match for Humphrey might be someone who can help shore up the English position in France - or at least not make it worse. IDK who such a lady would be though.

 

[kasumigenx]

Isabelle was married to René d'Anjou with the aim of having the second-largest landowner in France backing her up (Anjou's lands were second only to the king's IIRC). Why? So that they had a useful counterweight to Burgundy encroaching in the region (wasn't much use though - see the wars of the 1430s), but that was the theory behind it. Which means that a match with Humphrey for Isabelle makes absolutely zero sense.

A more useful match for Humphrey might be someone who can help shore up the English position in France - or at least not make it worse. IDK who such a lady would be though.

He could marry Blanche of Navarre, who has the same age.

 

[CaptainShadow]

Blanche of Navarre is a valid possibility there were negotiations iotl.

 

[RedKing]

The POD needs to happen in 1419/1420 timeframe here and Jacqueline marries Rene in 1423 instead.

Could the POD not just be Humphrey not marrying Jacqueline, Rene's Wife dying in [insert year] and then Rene marrying a jacqueline and Humphrey marrying Isabella.

Humphrey of Gloucester m. Isabella of Lorraine 1419

1a. Philippa of Lorraine b. 1422 m. Richard, third duke of York[1]

2a. Mary of Lorraine b. 1430 m. Charles the Bold

3a. Edward of Lorraine b. 1432





Rene I of Naples m. Jacqueline of Hainault

1a. John of Hainault and Anjou b. 1426

2a. Yolande of Hainault b. 1428 m. Louis XI

3a. Margaret of Hainault b. 1430

1. Alternative York matriarch.

I like the tree, but I agree with @CaptainShadow that Richard marrying Isabella is unlikely, it's more likely that she and her sister are used as English proxies.

Nope, Bedford cleaned stuff up with Philippe easily. What was problematic though, was the English walk out at Arras.

No, don't think so.

Really? The book I am currently reading and the wiki make it out to be so that the marriage was a major issue. The whole walking out of Arras was definitely a bad move, though in fairness the terms were unacceptable to the English.

No handover of Anjou probably and Henry marries that Armagnac girl.

I assume this is assuming the below doesn't happen? Or is there another butterfly. The Armagnac girl would probably be a better bride for Henry though.

Maybe, if Winchester doesn't pack the council with his supporters. Maybe not, if the two uncles feud turns violent due to neither getting a political advantage.

It never went violent in OTL, and I don't see why the Beauforts still wouldn't get the advantage here.

His otl second wife seems a fair shout.

I think he only met her during his marriage to Jacqueline so they might not meet in this scenario.

 

[kasumigenx]

I think Blanche of Navarre would be the best wife for Gloucester ITTL, perhaps Isabella and Jacqueline both marry to Anjou.

 

[RedKing]

Isabelle was married to René d'Anjou with the aim of having the second-largest landowner in France backing her up (Anjou's lands were second only to the king's IIRC). Why? So that they had a useful counterweight to Burgundy encroaching in the region (wasn't much use though - see the wars of the 1430s), but that was the theory behind it. Which means that a match with Humphrey for Isabelle makes absolutely zero sense.

I see, I thought the marriage may be a stretch, though that was because I thought Philippe had ambitions in Lorraine at the time.

A more useful match for Humphrey might be someone who can help shore up the English position in France - or at least not make it worse. IDK who such a lady would be though

He could marry Blanche of Navarre, who has the same age.

Blanche of Navarre is a valid possibility there were negotiations iotl.

Wasn't Blanche (II) of Navarre discussed for Henry and not Humphrey? If it's Blanche I you're referring to, at the time of the POD she is already married. Maybe there's a rebellious French nobleman's daughter for him?

 

[kasumigenx]

I see, I thought the marriage may be a stretch, though that was because I thought Philippe had ambitions in Lorraine at the time.



Wasn't Blanche (II) of Navarre discussed for Henry and not Humphrey? If it's Blanche I you're referring to, at the time of the POD she is already married. Maybe there's a rebellious French nobleman's daughter for him?

The POD here is earlier for Blanche I.

 

[RedKing]

The POD here is earlier for Blanche I.

I see.

 

[Jonathan1997]

If Had sons it would be them taking the throne for Henry Vi or alternatively giving the crown to his son.

 

[RedKing]

If Had sons it would be them taking the throne for Henry Vi or alternatively giving the crown to his son.

I think placing his son on the throne is more likely.