What if Central Asian/Mesopotamian irrigation systems survived?

[profxyz]

So I've been reading up a bit on the Logistics of the Macedonian Army, and there the author makes the assertion that during the period the Helmand and Amu Darya valleys were rich enough to sustain Alexander's army without significant problems. And of course there's the claim that Mesopotamia before the Mongols was fabulously productive.

Both regions are well past their heyday now - because, as the narrative goes, when the Mongols came they so thoroughly trashed the irrigation systems of both regions that agricultural production never recovered and both places became populated by nomadic tribesmen and raiders.

So, there are two questions I would like to pose:

1) Is the aforementioned narrative accurate? Personally, if the pre-Mongol region was so valuable I can't imagine why no Sultan ever made an attempt to restore the irrigation systems of the region (even allowing for the fact that both places were borderlands on the edge of large Muslim empires).

2) If the narrative is accurate, what would happen to the Muslim world had the Mongols not destroyed the irrigation systems? Assume the Mongols still invade, replace the Abbasids/Khwarezmians with the Ilkhanate etc. but leave enough people around to maintain the existing infrastructure. Timur's invasion (if it hasn't been butterflied) goes the same way.

Would Baghdad and Merv still be important centers of Islam, and capitals of significant empires? And would Islam be better sited to resist the West in such a case?

 

[Herzen's love-child]

The Qanats (the underground irrigation systems of Iran and Central Asia), were many centuries in the making. Some of it going back to 1000 BC. It would not be a matter of a few years to restore the system, the Mongols were so thorough. In short, it hasn't been until modern times that many parts of Central Asia have recovered agriculturally. In some areas, the demographics were so changed, they never recovered.

Mesopotamia relied more on wells and river water than canals and aqueducts. Mesopotamian agriculture was not effected to the same degree as Central Asia in the long term. At least partial restoration occurred. Although vast areas became and stayed wasteland.

Another reason these areas lost their importance in the centuries following the Mongols is that the centers of political gravity shifted elsewhere along with the resources (financial and otherwise) necessary to restore infrastructure. Hence these areas were relegated to being relative backwaters.

Yes, Merv and other Central Asian cities would probably have continued being greater cultural and political powerhouses if the Mongol Invasion had not occurred. Mesopotamia, too.

I wonder, though, if the Turks and Persians wouldn't have both been contending for dominance in Mesopotamia, anyway, in time. Or if a Polity there could have become a long-term buffer state between the 2 empires.

 

[LSCatilina]

1) Is the aforementioned narrative accurate? Personally, if the pre-Mongol region was so valuable I can't imagine why no Sultan ever made an attempt to restore the irrigation systems of the region .

Because once the infrastructures destroyed, you lacked ressources you could put in rebuilding them as these ressources came directly from this wealth, critically with at best half of the pre-war population having being outright killed.

2) If the narrative is accurate, what would happen to the Muslim world had the Mongols not destroyed the irrigation systems?

Would Baghdad and Merv still be important centers of Islam, and capitals of significant empires? And would Islam be better sited to resist the West in such a case?

Only thanks to irrigation? Not really.

First, as you pointed out, Al-Jazir power were at the crossroad of every hostile and powerful neighbours. Without an impetus making the region hegemonic, things are going to be pretty hard.
Salination of water was also an ongoing process, asking for long-term efforts Abassid Caliphate wasn't able to fournish.

Bagdad could remain an islamic center, but probably secondary as other would take over, and that the city would know the fate of its ancient counterparts : as in partial abandon and desertification.
At best, something as Cairo nowaday, if not, as Damas.

Abassid Caliphate could survive as a token legitimacy for conquerors (whatever Mongols, Turks, etc.) but was too much weakened to hope reborn as it was.

 

[danmac]

I do agree that as long as the infrastructure of Central Asia remains intact cities such as Merv and Samarkand will likely remain fairly significant cultural centers. Being crucial to the Silk Road will do that to you. I am somewhat skeptical of the region becoming a political powerhouse since beside the Khwareziams there were no major empires to my knowledge that were centered there that didn't go on to establish themselves in the Iranian Plateau or India. Though I doubt that will be too big an impediment to Central Asian cities remaining vibrant cultural centers, though they will likely decline as overseas trade becomes more viable.

As for Mesopotamia, it is likely that Baghdad will end up overshadowed by its neighboring regions as occurred in OTL, though it will almost certainly have a greater ability to maintain some form of autonomy, perhaps much like Egypt under the Ottomans.

2) If the narrative is accurate, what would happen to the Muslim world had the Mongols not destroyed the irrigation systems? Assume the Mongols still invade, replace the Abbasids/Khwarezmians with the Ilkhanate etc. but leave enough people around to maintain the existing infrastructure. Timur's invasion (if it hasn't been butterflied) goes the same way.

As for the Mongols not destroying the infrastructure while still invading, I doubt that could happen. The Mongol invaders tended to be incredibly destructive if you resisted them since their main strategy was to discourage future resistance.

 

[Herzen's love-child]

As for the Mongols not destroying the infrastructure while still invading, I doubt that could happen. The Mongol invaders tended to be incredibly destructive if you resisted them since their main strategy was to discourage future resistance.

Conquering Mongol Hordes will be Conquering Mongol Hordes...



I've been in parts of Khorasan which formerly had functioning Qanats serving once extensively farmed lands which are now desert.

An interesting factoid-- factional wars under the Khwarazm first put the qanat system in decline, then Genghis did his very thorough number, then the Il-Khans began to restore some of the qanats. Finally Timur put a stop to that and destroyed more.