What if Canada got the Queen Elizabeth class ships it ordered

Do during WW1 the Canadian Navy had ordered 3 Queen Elizabeth class ships this did go so what things like the ear ending a government in fighting.

But what would happen if it did? How would the Canadian Navy's role change? Anything else it might effect?
 
Do during WW1 the Canadian Navy had ordered 3 Queen Elizabeth class ships this did go so what things like the ear ending a government in fighting.

But what would happen if it did? How would the Canadian Navy's role change? Anything else it might effect?

They either get scrapped to comply with the WNT or gifted back to the Royal Navy once Canada realizes it has no interest in maintaining three battleships. More interesting, the RN and RCN arrange for basically insurance fraud on the high seas to get a chance to build three brand new Treaty Battleships, and run them ashore on a known shoal and declare them TCN. Regardless, three of the R class are scrapped to reach compliance.
 
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I'm assuming you're treating the Royal Canadian Navy as part of the Royal Navy.

Let's say two things could have happened ether:

A.) The the dominions navy is treated separate from the Royal Navy
Or
B.) The boats were built during the war.

I highly doubt the Canadian Navy or any navy with there heads on straight would scrap the capital ships the just got. Especially if it's their only ones.
 
I'm assuming you're treating the Royal Canadian Navy as part of the Royal Navy.

Let's say two things could have happened ether:

A.) The the dominions navy is treated separate from the Royal Navy
Or
B.) The boats were built during the war.

I highly doubt the Canadian Navy or any navy with there heads on straight would scrap the capital ships the just got. Especially if it's their only ones.
AIUI, the Canadians were not buying the three BBs for their own use, as Canada barely had the political will to keep its two ancient cruisers in service, three BBs and presumably support ships are out of the question. Instead, they were planning to pay for the three ships for the Royal Navy to help it defend the Empire, including Canada, so Canada wouldn't have to keep up its own navy besides maybe some fishery protection vessels. The other problem here is during WWI, the British government did not allow any new capital ships to be built. Fisher got some of his personal projects through on technicalities, but three more QE's are not getting laid down and completed during WWI.
 
AIUI, the Canadians were not buying the three BBs for their own use, as Canada barely had the political will to keep its two ancient cruisers in service, three BBs and presumably support ships are out of the question.
Most of the ships Canada had were severely outdated. Maintaining the was well already hard.

Tho because this is an alt-history site and this is an alt-history idea I have been thinking about using the Halifax explosion as the point of departure.

The explosion scares Canada that a Central powers ship somehow got across the Atlantic(I can't find any info say this fear happened in our timeline). This makes Canada strengthen itself even more. This involves Canada pestering Britain to build them or negotiating a way to build them in Canada.
 
Most of the ships Canada had were severely outdated. Maintaining the was well already hard.

Tho because this is an alt-history site and this is an alt-history idea I have been thinking about using the Halifax explosion as the point of departure.

The explosion scares Canada that a Central powers ship somehow got across the Atlantic(I can't find any info say this fear happened in our timeline). This makes Canada strengthen itself even more. This involves Canada pestering Britain to build them or negotiating a way to build them in Canada.
There was concerns about German sabotage however to my knowledge, it was never strictly about a Central Powers ship infiltrating Halifax. Even if something like that would have happened, the date of the Halifax Explosion really is too late for Canada to get something like capital ships. If Canada somehow wants capital ships, it is going to need to get them before WWI kicks off similarly to Australia. Any capital ship procurement that starts during WWI or leaks into the interwar period is going to see the nation running afoul of the Washington Naval Treaty. Canada doesn't have the political willpower or the naval development to operate any real number of capital ships, the Navy was underfunded to the point of nearly dissolving constantly throughout its early periods. This is why Canada was flat out giving the UK government money so they could build capital ships, Canada couldn't do anything with them itself. Canada's shipbuilding industry is also completely unsuited to building even small warships to the point where if you wanted to build capital ships in Canada, you'd need a good decade of heavily government sponsored development and/or major pieces like guns, fire control systems, machinery, armor plates, etc to be brought over to Canada wholesale.

Capital ships as a type of warship don't fit Canada very well, especially battleships like the QE class. Canada could have made use of a battlecruiser but the main issue was the fact that Canada has two coasts. This was one of the reasons why Canada never bought into the "fleet unit" concept like Australia did since both the west and east coasts required defense, Canada would need to procure two capital ships at minimum or leave one coast exposed. High endurance cruisers capable of patrolling sea lanes for German raiders are really far more valuable to Canada than anything else. Destroyers and submarines can be useful for coastal defense but neither types of vessel in the period has the range to really counter German raiding attempts in the Atlantic and Pacific.
 
Most of the ships Canada had were severely outdated. Maintaining the was well already hard.
But not as difficult/expensive as three 30,000+ ton battleships, each of which has probably twice the crew of the two cruisers combined and needs major facilities to be kept up to work on them.
Tho because this is an alt-history site and this is an alt-history idea I have been thinking about using the Halifax explosion as the point of departure.

The explosion scares Canada that a Central powers ship somehow got across the Atlantic(I can't find any info say this fear happened in our timeline). This makes Canada strengthen itself even more. This involves Canada pestering Britain to build them or negotiating a way to build them in Canada.
If a CP ship got across the Atlantic somehow and caused the explosion, it is most likely to be a sub (not really the niche of a BB to counter) or an AMC (much cheaper to counter with a cruiser) slipping a team of saboteurs ashore somehow. BBs aren't really justified by either and as I said in my previous post, would probably not get built anyways.
 
I give up. I guess I should abandon this useless thread unless you guys have an idea on how to get the ships into Canada's hands and keep them. which is NOT going the happen because all your answers it's not going to happen or they get them for a total of 2 days before they are sent to the scrap yard.

I come here to bounce ideas for an interesting alt-history, I come out disappointed and dejected. I guess this is what happens when you are not one of the big names.
 
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It's the timing of the Canadian offer that's the issue. If WW1 starts as otl the ships are just to late for it given the other needs that rapidly become necessary.
 
If there are three Canadian QE's finished or not the Washington treaty will be very different. With the Experience of WW1 fresh in the RN the Admiralty will want to keep/finish these three ships. The likely result is that the RN will sacrifice everything up to the Iron Dukes strait away and go from there. Does this mean that Japan and USA keep more ships maybe but that is a matter for discussion.
I see the Mid 1030's RN being, QE's, 5R's 2 NelRods, Hood, Refit and Repair. It could be that for cost reasons all 5 R's are in reserve.
 
I give up. I guess I should abandon this useless thread unless you guys have an idea on how to get the ships into Canada's hands and keep them. which is NOT going the happen because all your answers it's not going to happen or they get them for a total of 2 days before they are sent to the scrap yard.

I come here to bounce ideas for an interesting alt-history, I come out disappointed and dejected. I guess this is what happens when you are not one of the big names.
They probably can't be kept by Canada (or Britain) as additions to the RN capital ship allowance under TTL Washington Naval
Treaty. But this would be different, maybe higher limits or maybe Britain/Canada keep them instead of a number of older ships.

These QEs would be built at the same time as some of the USN classes so no fundamental problem with them being around.
 
How completed are they? Carrier conversions are always a thing as shown by HMS Argus. Not a great option, but still an option.

In a lot of ways it is likely to kill Washington. The RN has too many old new ships. The USN and IJN don't have enough and need to build new new ships.
 
I give up. I guess I should abandon this useless thread unless you guys have an idea on how to get the ships into Canada's hands and keep them. which is NOT going the happen because all your answers it's not going to happen or they get them for a total of 2 days before they are sent to the scrap yard.

I come here to bounce ideas for an interesting alt-history, I come out disappointed and dejected. I guess this is what happens when you are not one of the big names.
Don't give up...work the problem.

1 - If you're determined to have three QE's for Canada, not possible in real life so take it to the ASB forum. Maybe more emigration to Canada puts them in a stronger position?​
2 - If you want Canada to fund three QE's (and possibly crew one) look at timelines and how this will impact/be impacted by the various naval treaties.​
3 - If you just want a stronger RCN, look at options. What could Canada realistically afford and crew? Just off the top of my head, could an attack by part of the East Asia Squadron or a German AMC on a Canadian port pressure the RCN into ordering 2-3 C Class cruisers?​
Edited to add, my own attempt to keep HMS Tiger in service - https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-gets-a-refit-v2-the-tiger-goes-south.458951/ - ran into the same issues, but you can learn a lot, even from a "failed" timeline! I certainly did.​
 
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Most of the ships Canada had were severely outdated. Maintaining the was well already hard.

Tho because this is an alt-history site and this is an alt-history idea I have been thinking about using the Halifax explosion as the point of departure.

The explosion scares Canada that a Central powers ship somehow got across the Atlantic(I can't find any info say this fear happened in our timeline). This makes Canada strengthen itself even more. This involves Canada pestering Britain to build them or negotiating a way to build them in Canada.

I would agree the ships with be RN before very long, especially after the Depression hits.

At Washington, I would think an additional three 15in armed ships would butterfly away Nelsol and Rodol, so the Mutsu might not be a problem after all. Mutsu was the reason the RN got to build two new capital ships and the USN got to keep two additional "West Virginias" (as the treaty called them). Mustu was paid for by public subscription, mostly from school children and the IJN refuse to giver her up.

I would think the RN would have to scrap all the Iron Dukes from the start, and after London, they may choose to demilitarize a pair of Rs instead of QE and one of her sisters...

My thoughts,
 
They either get scrapped to comply with the WNT
At Washington, I would think an additional three 15in armed ships would butterfly away Nelsol and Rodol, so the Mutsu might not be a problem after all. Mutsu was the reason the RN got to build two new capital ships and the USN got to keep two additional "West Virginias" (as the treaty called them). Mustu was paid for by public subscription, mostly from school children and the IJN refuse to giver her up.
I would question why? I think just a larger or changed WNT allowance?

Mutsu and sister are still 16" as are the "West Virginias" and later designs than the QEs would be?

Would OTL WNT treaty but with the three "Canadian" QEs swapped for the 4 ID and maybe Tiger not be fine? This would then hit 1LNT more, as the RN would not want to lose 15" ships that could just sit in reserve very cheaply and still used the standard equipment.
 
I would question why? I think just a larger or changed WNT allowance?

A couple reasons, I think: First, I think the RN would be reluctant to scrap 15in armed battleships so close to their completion, be they QE or R class. Second, Japan doesn't have the numbers for a larger allowance. I doubt they would be interested in keeping Kawachi and Settsu in a scenario where the RN is 'all 15in'. Third, while the USN has the numbers, again they would be retaining older 12in armed ships while the RN is all '15in' armed. Finally, I doubt the RN would want the USN and IJN programs that are still on the stocks to continue, be they Tosas or Amagis or South Dakotas or Lexingtons, as they would wreck the 35,000 ton limit and make older ships death traps should they come into combat with the ships the Washington Treaty historically canceled.

I do think there is an off-chance that each power might be allowed to build one or two treaty compliant new ships, just so the RN can put the lessons of Jutland into practice, but the point of the treaty system was to end the arms race, not to slow it.

Hood was the reason the RN historically only two new 16in armed ships, as she was so far outside the qualitative 35,000 ton limit, though still 15in armed. In the initial draft of 'ships to be retained the RN's premiere capital ship would have been Hood, the USN's Maryland and the IJN's Nagato. The problem was Mustu, and historically when the Japanese wouldn't give her up, the compromise was made. But the RN was already willing to forego a 16in armed ship.

If you've seen the F2 and F3 designs over on the BC Board, the our member JohnFrench has stated that the ship the RN really wanted to build on 35,000 tons was F3, but after the treaty was signed they felt compelled to build a 16in armed ship.

My additional thoughts,
 
They either get scrapped to comply with the WNT or gifted back to the Royal Navy once Canada realizes it has no interest in maintaining three battleships. More interesting, the RN and RCN arrange for basically insurance fraud on the high seas to get a chance to build three brand new Treaty Battleships, and run them ashore on a known shoal and declare them TCN. Regardless, three of the R class are scrapped to reach compliance.
Having 3 more QEs changes the WNT!

The British were not interested in such fraudulent activities - they had far more to gain by being an honest broker regarding the Naval treaties and hoping the other parties did likewise.
 
A couple reasons, I think: First, I think the RN would be reluctant to scrap 15in armed battleships so close to their completion, be they QE or R class. Second, Japan doesn't have the numbers for a larger allowance. I doubt they would be interested in keeping Kawachi and Settsu in a scenario where the RN is 'all 15in'. Third, while the USN has the numbers, again they would be retaining older 12in armed ships while the RN is all '15in' armed. Finally, I doubt the RN would want the USN and IJN programs that are still on the stocks to continue, be they Tosas or Amagis or South Dakotas or Lexingtons, as they would wreck the 35,000 ton limit and make older ships death traps should they come into combat with the ships the Washington Treaty historically canceled.
I dont see any Canadian QE not being finished (or scraped) mid-war? Ie by WNT they would be in fleet service of Canada or RN? Maybe at the cost of R&R or Hood, but that makes for even less change?

I dont see why GB/RN would agree to any limits that scraped 15" ships and USN/IJN would be told by politicians to agree?
 
I give up. I guess I should abandon this useless thread unless you guys have an idea on how to get the ships into Canada's hands and keep them. which is NOT going the happen because all your answers it's not going to happen or they get them for a total of 2 days before they are sent to the scrap yard.

I come here to bounce ideas for an interesting alt-history, I come out disappointed and dejected. I guess this is what happens when you are not one of the big names.
The proposed funding for the three "Dreadnoughts of the latest type," came in the Naval Aid Bill of 1912. There was a perceived emergency at the time that the Royal Navy was short on capital ships.

The Admiralty's advice was that the most effective emergency aid would take from of Dreadnoughts of the latest type... He proposed to ask Parliament for $35,000,000 which would provide three of them. They wold be maintained by the British Government as part of the Royal Navy; they would be at the disposal of the Admiralty for the common defence of the British Empire; and they could later be recalled to form part of the a Canadian unit of the Royal Navy, in which case they would of course be maintained by Canada. Special arrangement would be made to give Canadians the opportunity of serving on these ships.
The Naval Service of Canada - Volume 1 p.190 Gilbert Norman Tucker
Had the proposed Canadian Dreadnoughts have been authorized late in 1912... they would have been fast battleships of the Queen Elizabeth class.
ibid. p.197
The battleships were killed by internal political strife and indecision in the Canadian government. The best POD is to have some kind of political champion to force the appropriation bill through Parliament in 1912-13, or to have an international crisis that causes this issue to take priority in the Canadian political mind. You could invent a character to midwife the battleship project, or take a historical figure and buff them up. You could create an international incident from whole cloth, or you could amplify an existing one. You need not even amplify the events of an OTL international incident, only the perception among Canadian Parliamentarians.

In any case, you will have to dig in and do some of your own research to make the events plausible.
 
Assuming the Canada paid for these ships by the early part of WW1 and they survive (the fact they exist will change any battle they are in so the outcome /what ships get damaged or destroyed will change) then Canada/GB will want to keep them as they are better then some other options.
Just the fact that this world has 3 more modern (ish) BBs will tilt the WNT a bit.
That being said the US is not just going to sit back and let Canada keep three BBs. The US is mot stupid they fully know that any RCN ship will proptly join in on GB side in any war/battle. So they will be counted as GB ships in the balance game. Otherwise the US will create State or territorial Navies and give. the “state named” ships to each of its states and off the USN list.
(Yes that is absurd but so is letting Canada count different the GB)

This is is made worse by two factors. If Canada counts sepetatly why cant Australia or the rest of them get their own ships? And Two these three ships (assuming Canada can man then and keep them running) would be parked right on the US boarder…

So something has to give in the WNT in a BIG way
 
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