I would think that the example of the contemporary Baltics would be worth noting. The Prussians were crushed; the Lithuanians converted at the right time and actually became something of a power; the Latvians and Estonians ended up becoming serf populations; Finland got directly integrated into Sweden.
What if America was founded in the High Middle Ages?
- Thread starter Danthefan28
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I would think that the example of the contemporary Baltics would be worth noting. The Prussians were crushed; the Lithuanians converted at the right time and actually became something of a power; the Latvians and Estonians ended up becoming serf populations; Finland got directly integrated into Sweden.
I would think that the example of the contemporary Baltics would be worth noting. The Prussians were crushed; the Lithuanians converted at the right time and actually became something of a power; the Latvians and Estonians ended up becoming serf populations; Finland got directly integrated into Sweden.
They got both OTL but of the two, smallpox always posed a much greater threat.So the natives get hit not only by smallpox but by the 'black death' as well?
Yes but there are a important difference, the Balt and Finns are pretty genetic similar to the Germanic and Slavic people, so they don’t saw population collapse as result of plagues. So it’s more likely more similar to expansion into thinly populated land, a example of this in OTL was the expansion of the East Slavs out into the steppes, which resulted in islands of steppe population in a sea of East Slavs.
I don't think genetic matters here, or at least not in the manner like you describe, I think it has more to do with how interconnected those regions are with each other and their population size.
Genes mattered a lot, while any population are hit hard by new plagues, the Native Americans had the extra problem that they had a major genetic bottleneck when they entered America, so their had low diversity meant that entire communities was depopulated by plagues and epidemic. If we compare that with when entire new plagues hit Virgin old world populations, we usual only saw a 30-40% dies off, because the greater diversity meant some always had better resistant or immunity.
You talked about genetic similarity between populations, not internal diversity within a population
Yes and simply used it for a shorthand for Balts and Finns being deeply integrated and intermarriage with their neighbors.
Would the European famine/poor harvest still occur in North America?
With the Americas, the disruptive effects of colonialism also have to be accounted for. If indigenous populations, after being hit by plagues, had not also been affected by wars of imperial conquest and the appropriation of land for the benefit of the empire.etc, more might have recovered. Consider how the Prussians and other like groups actually did end up getting assimilated into the polity created and the culture imported by the Teutonic Knights.
It should also be noted that the maritime tech of High Middle Ages Europe was not nearly up to the level of early modern Europe. The ability of a hypothetical European power to project power across the Atlantic would accordingly be limited.
It was that sweet spot. In 990 in Norway and the North Atlantic it was 90%+ Pagan. For example in Iceland Christianity died out after the first generation of mostly low status slaves and the first Missionaries weren't active until 985 and many of them were outlaws. Pagan Norway fought a pitched battle in the 980s to keep Christian Danes out and faith was big reason behind it.
By 1010 whole communities had converted, mostly due to Olaf Trygvasson and things were trending Christian but it was still a top down sort of thing except in Iceland where it was "freely" chosen under threat of civil disorder and a trade boycott from Trygvasson's Norway.
But kill Trygvasson early and you could probably delay Christianization generations.
Alternatively, perhaps something like a united Norse monarchy with an interest in transatlantic affairs. What happened OTL was not enough to sustain the connection.
Olaf Trygvasson? Olaf Guestslayer!
"King Olaf Trygvasson, Olaf the Christian,
Sent to the North-Jarls to meet in his Hall;
Hied they to Nidaros, home of the North-King,
Trusting his honour, to hear they his words;"
(snip)
"Holy is hosting, happy the feasting,"
(snip)
"Then up rose Olaf, oath-breaking Olaf,
Bade them to leave as Christians or as corpses;"
(snip)
Not knights.
Kings of Norway did not conquer Iceland or Greenland till 1250s. Yet the Church established three sees in the republics - Skalholt 1056, Holar 1106, Gardar 1126.
Iceland (and Faeroes) had no natives. Greenland had some but High Medieval Norse of Greenland seem to have done little trade or missionary activity with Eskimos.
Scandinavia had Lapps who were heathens till 17th century. And a lot of trade and taxation. How did High Medieval, 13th...15th century church (Archbishops of Nidaros and Uppsala and Bishop of Abo) arrange for relations with Lapps in their dioceses? No knights were sent against Lapps in any of the three dioceses.
Iceland has area of 102 000 square km, and highest summit at 2119 m. 18th century population around 50 000, High Medieval population estimated as similar. 2 bishops (as above), archbishop in Norway.
Ireland has area 84 000 square km, highest summit 1041 m. High Medieval population estimated as 1 300 000. 30 bishops and 4 archbishops.
Newfoundland has area 111 000 square km, highest summit 814 m. What could be High Medieval population of Newfoundland? Number of sees?