What countries can claim to be the oldest nation states?
- Thread starter Jimbo808
- Start date
China. They have survived as a nation-state and culture for thousands of years.
Alongside China is Egypt and Iraq, although the linguistic history of the latter two could be the problem.
China is more like that weird newish concept of a "civilisation state." If I had to pick the first nation state proper I'd probably say France.
It's a Ship of Theseus problem. Is the current People's Republic of China the same nation-state as the Republic of China, Ming Dynasty China, the Seven Kingdoms, etc. ? Is the Arab Republic of Egypt the same nation-state as the Old Kingdom?
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France. Nationalism is at best a couple of centuries old, so speaking of nation-states as thousands of years old is anachronistic.
I'd go with Japan. There is one institution that has survived with varied levels of power from 200s-300s when the state of Yamato was dealing its serious rival Izumo to the state that lost to it's serious rival the United States in WW2.
France: Kings of France are descended from Charlemagne and the current incarnation still has carryovers from the Ancien Regime in terms of culture. But we have only one real break (French Revolution) while China has had multiple periods of non existence.
France: Kings of France are descended from Charlemagne and the current incarnation still has carryovers from the Ancien Regime in terms of culture. But we have only one real break (French Revolution) while China has had multiple periods of non existence.
At least PRC has more common things with Qin Dynasty than modern Egypt has with Old Kingdom. In China language has remained basically same altough it has changed through centuries. Many things are of course differently but lot of them are same.
But modern Egypt has pretty few if any doing with Ancient Egypt. Arabic is not even closely related to Ancient Egyptian altough they are on same language family. At least Egyptians have changed genetically pretty few during last 5000 years. But culture and even religion are completely different.
Even if we say that modern Egypt is not ancient Egypt, the Pharaonic period lasted longer than the Chinese Empire did. And of course, the Egyptian language only went extinct around the 1600s.
Then there is Iran, which claims to be a successor of the state founded by Kyros, making it 2500 years old, and also superceeding the Chinese Empire in age.
The Romans were around for something like 2100 years, barely shorter than the Chinese Empire.
My ranking would be 1) Egypt 2) Iran 3) China 4) Rome
When it comes to nation states STILL AROUND.
na·tion-state
noun
Under the definition above, the oldest nation state in Europe that is still around is Portugal (founded in 1095). And although it was in a personal union with the Spanish monarchy for a little bit, it was still a separate nation. City states don't count in my opinion. France and England don't become true nation states until after the 100 Years War.
China was successfully conquered by the Mongols and the Manchus so they don't count. Persia is not the same as Parthia who is not the same as the Sassinids, who are not the same as modern day Iranians, so Iran doesn't count either.
Which means the only other nation that can compete with Portugal for the title of longest surviving nation state still around is Japan, although we need to consider when the Japanese islands truly become the nation of Japan.
When it comes to longest surviving all time (but not still around), Egypt is the winner (Hyksos never conquered upper and middle Egypt, so it's existence as a nation state isn't interrupted during that era).
na·tion-state
noun
- a sovereign state whose citizens or subjects are relatively homogeneous in factors such as language or common descent.
Under the definition above, the oldest nation state in Europe that is still around is Portugal (founded in 1095). And although it was in a personal union with the Spanish monarchy for a little bit, it was still a separate nation. City states don't count in my opinion. France and England don't become true nation states until after the 100 Years War.
China was successfully conquered by the Mongols and the Manchus so they don't count. Persia is not the same as Parthia who is not the same as the Sassinids, who are not the same as modern day Iranians, so Iran doesn't count either.
Which means the only other nation that can compete with Portugal for the title of longest surviving nation state still around is Japan, although we need to consider when the Japanese islands truly become the nation of Japan.
When it comes to longest surviving all time (but not still around), Egypt is the winner (Hyksos never conquered upper and middle Egypt, so it's existence as a nation state isn't interrupted during that era).
Moreover, France is not as homogenous itself, since it also incorporated Breton, German and Basque territories during its expansion.
I don't think conquering others disqualifies you as long as the core population and ruling government is continuously homogeneous.
Being conquered however does disqualify you.
This calling something so early a nation state is all very arbitrarily, but in the parameters you sketch I think Denmark could also qualify for oldest.