What are the more obscure butterfly effects of a failed American Revolution?
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Sorry yes: in Pennsylvanian Catholics had the right to practice their religion; it Quebec, it was state supported.
Oh my goodness, where to begin? This is, honestly, one of my top 10 favorite topics, so hopefully nobody minds any potentially really long posts from me here.
I'll address Canada a little further down, but Australia + N.Z. would likely still be settled by Britain, yes-maybe not as reliant on prisoner transporting as they were IOTL......
Well, while I could certainly see the rise of Napoleon being butterflied(certainly as it happened IOTL), I don't think we can so easily dismiss the idea of an ATL *French Revolution happening anyway, mainly because of how just many serious problems the French state had by the late 18th Century-there are plausible scenarios in which the monarchy could reform enough to possibly avoid collapse altogether instead of merely delaying the inevitable, but it's really not as easy to do plausibly as some might think with that late of a POD.
The bold is certainly true.....but that doesn't necessarily preclude the existence of *Canada altogether, though. It probably wouldn't be a virtually exact copy of OTL's Canada, for sure, but a very similar country could very well develop, under the right circumstances.
Yeah, probably so. But, I'd add, though, that there is always a possibility that a few of the other European powers might still be able to take advantage of
I think there could be some real debate about this, but when it comes to weather, I've always taken a mixed approach just because of how chaotic, as it were, meterological systems can be, in simplified terms.
A world more dominated by monarchies is very much possible, for sure, but it may not necessarily turn out that way, depending on what happens after the POD.
That's definitely possible. Suppose it depends on what unfolds after the POD, though, and the EIC could end up being stronger, if anything given the right circumstances.
Britain would probably attempt to make colonies in Africa, too, if for no other reason than to keep up with the other European powers. How successful that is will depend on events after the original POD but it is possible that more indigenous African polities could survive and stave off European colonization.....or, conversely, it happens earlier and the native societies lose even harder than they did IOTL.
Unfortunately, this is a very possible side-effect of a failed Revolution that a lot of allohistorical fiction writers do tend to overlook; slavery wouldn't necessarily last much longer than it did in the U.S.A. in our universe, but with the South remaining British, it very well could have survived well past 1840 without that much trouble.
First of all, what do you describe as "modernism"? It's just such a vague term it could apply to just about anything.....but in any case, though, I can't see how capitalism gets butterflied by a failed Revolution and it'd be pretty hard to keep the churches very strong without some serious doses of active authoritarianism-this could happen, but would more likely be a fusion between church and state, and not the church above the state(the latter is possible, too, but rather hard to do with an 18th Century POD). And even the nobility might not necessarily hang around in British America as even before the Revolution they weren't that prominent locally.
Definitely true that the Marines have a pretty special place in the minds of many Americans as far as the military goes-so here, that might not be the case in a *British America.
Possible that such ideals might be less widespread than OTL, but you wouldn't be able to eliminate such thinking entirely, either.
And, as I pointed out above, would very likely become at least similar to OTL at some point-that's one bit of convergence you can't really plausibly avoid, at least not without some truly radical changes.
And I'd add that the Proclamation Line seems to be kind of a strange thing for the British Empire to have done, considering their actual overall view of Native Americans-maybe if the French had won the Seven Years' War, it could have made more sense(simply because Britain probably wouldn't want to start another war with them so soon after losing).
No, they likely wouldn't have, I generally agree with you there.
Eh, American football might well be butterflied, but baseball could still make it, given that a few precursor games did exist both in the Colonies and in Britain.
I'll address Canada a little further down, but Australia + N.Z. would likely still be settled by Britain, yes-maybe not as reliant on prisoner transporting as they were IOTL......
Well, while I could certainly see the rise of Napoleon being butterflied(certainly as it happened IOTL), I don't think we can so easily dismiss the idea of an ATL *French Revolution happening anyway, mainly because of how just many serious problems the French state had by the late 18th Century-there are plausible scenarios in which the monarchy could reform enough to possibly avoid collapse altogether instead of merely delaying the inevitable, but it's really not as easy to do plausibly as some might think with that late of a POD.
The bold is certainly true.....but that doesn't necessarily preclude the existence of *Canada altogether, though. It probably wouldn't be a virtually exact copy of OTL's Canada, for sure, but a very similar country could very well develop, under the right circumstances.
Yeah, probably so. But, I'd add, though, that there is always a possibility that a few of the other European powers might still be able to take advantage of
I think there could be some real debate about this, but when it comes to weather, I've always taken a mixed approach just because of how chaotic, as it were, meterological systems can be, in simplified terms.
A world more dominated by monarchies is very much possible, for sure, but it may not necessarily turn out that way, depending on what happens after the POD.
That's definitely possible. Suppose it depends on what unfolds after the POD, though, and the EIC could end up being stronger, if anything given the right circumstances.
Britain would probably attempt to make colonies in Africa, too, if for no other reason than to keep up with the other European powers. How successful that is will depend on events after the original POD but it is possible that more indigenous African polities could survive and stave off European colonization.....or, conversely, it happens earlier and the native societies lose even harder than they did IOTL.
Unfortunately, this is a very possible side-effect of a failed Revolution that a lot of allohistorical fiction writers do tend to overlook; slavery wouldn't necessarily last much longer than it did in the U.S.A. in our universe, but with the South remaining British, it very well could have survived well past 1840 without that much trouble.
First of all, what do you describe as "modernism"? It's just such a vague term it could apply to just about anything.....but in any case, though, I can't see how capitalism gets butterflied by a failed Revolution and it'd be pretty hard to keep the churches very strong without some serious doses of active authoritarianism-this could happen, but would more likely be a fusion between church and state, and not the church above the state(the latter is possible, too, but rather hard to do with an 18th Century POD). And even the nobility might not necessarily hang around in British America as even before the Revolution they weren't that prominent locally.
That might well be true.....if monarchism doesn't end up being discredited by the present day, which is possible, but far from guaranteed.
This is possible, yes, and this might be especially true for smaller countries(think: Serbia, Bulgaria, the Netherlands, Belgium, etc.), though at least some larger nations would still have it eventually, if only out of necessity.
Definitely true that the Marines have a pretty special place in the minds of many Americans as far as the military goes-so here, that might not be the case in a *British America.
Possible that such ideals might be less widespread than OTL, but you wouldn't be able to eliminate such thinking entirely, either.
And, as I pointed out above, would very likely become at least similar to OTL at some point-that's one bit of convergence you can't really plausibly avoid, at least not without some truly radical changes.
And I'd add that the Proclamation Line seems to be kind of a strange thing for the British Empire to have done, considering their actual overall view of Native Americans-maybe if the French had won the Seven Years' War, it could have made more sense(simply because Britain probably wouldn't want to start another war with them so soon after losing).
No, they likely wouldn't have, I generally agree with you there.
Eh, American football might well be butterflied, but baseball could still make it, given that a few precursor games did exist both in the Colonies and in Britain.
Wait, do you mean in the sense that the only republics and democracies in existence prior to 1776 just happened to be in smaller countries, like Venice, Paoli's Corsica, etc., or do you mean that no large country could be described as a republic and/or a democracy even if it had those very systems in place? If the latter, then that would make no sense whatsoever.....though to be fair, if you meant the former, then at least then I suppose we could say that it would be understandable for the ordinary working or farming person in the West(up to a point, anyway) to be kinda confused to hear of a larger state being something other than a (non-democratic) monarchy.
RuneGloves
Banned
Perhaps bigger military presence, due to the extreme distance. True the og military presence was due to convicts, but that could very well be a proxy for the required security in the region.
It depends what you mean by Canada. Mutliple colonies grouping together? Like a New England, or east to west.
I'm not that sure, but I think colonists were at odds with the EIC.
Yeah, you are right. That was a L on my part. Tho I do feel American colonies would act as a national blackhole when it comes to national resources, attention and focus.
I generally envision abolition going the way it did otl. England and Wales 1770s, Northern colonies early 19th, middle colonies around Nat Turner rebellion if that's avoided. And then Southern colonies in the 1860s/70s. I feel that the US Civil War gets mistaken as being about slavery too much, and not the regional power struggle between "Puritan" New Englanders and "Cavalier" Southerners.
I suppose the best way to sum it up is examples. Government "Departments" instead of "Ministries". Separation of Church and State. Civic system, like big focus on citizenship, as opposed to nationality/ethnicity (because in a normal country, there is a distinction between Austrians and Hungarians in AH, or Flemish and Waloons, or Okinawans and Ainu), in America it enveloped dozens of ethnic groups into just Citizens. The focus on abstract documents like a Constitution. It's all very secular, cutting ties with the traditional order of things. I suppose by modern I mean what isn't the traditional order.
I think the view towards Marines would be more exclusive, because to them it would be the "Royal Marines" . It would be their own thing, too connected to their heritage and nation for it to be exported globally, like "SK Marines, RU Marines, Japanese Marines". Like even America's enemies copied their pattern.
I feel like part of the reason America got such global perception, was because it lacked a visible ethnic core (It did have WASPs). Everyone could imagine themselves there. Irish, German, catholics, Dutch, Norwegians, Italians, Poles. Compared to Quebec, we know that as French.
America is a self-insert country basically.
The Proclomation Line is massively misunderstood. It was an attempt to encourage settlement on the southeast, to prevent Spainish/French intrusions. And to give Britain a rest from fighting Indians.
This is where ethe fun begins.
There is so many variations regarding this, Gaelic, Canadian, Australian, American and Rugby.
When George Washington was in Philadelphia for the Constitutional Convention, he attended services each Sunday at a different church. This included the city's Catholic church.
I meant literally funded by the state. It's why, to this day, several Canadian provinces have publicly funded Catholic School systems
I merely intended to confirm the presence of a Catholic church in Pennsylvania (and note its acceptance by one of the Founders).