What are plausible decisions Nazi Germany could have made to improve their performance in the War?

[Deleted member 1487]

IIRC the Red Army, or 'Army of workers and peasants', did the training. Training in cold conditions was just another day in training for them.

Ah no. They suffered very badly in Finland and in the Winter of 1941-42. Much worse than the Germans even. They had better winter gear, but little time for special training and they had to attack out into the winter, not sit in defensive positions and try to repel them. David Stahel just did a book about the retreat from Moscow and the Soviet side of the story sounded extremely grim; by contrast the problems the Germans faced were actually less bad than often described, especially after the initial retreat in December. The Soviets just were willing to suffered much worse losses to achieve their goals...and they didn't achieve most of their goals.

 

[tomo pauk]

Ah no. They suffered very badly in Finland and in the Winter of 1941-42. Much worse than the Germans even. They had better winter gear, but little time for special training and they had to attack out into the winter, not sit in defensive positions and try to repel them.

There is winter training, and then there is winter training. And then there is thigh of working logistics vs. operating from encirclement.

David Stahel just did a book about the retreat from Moscow and the Soviet side of the story sounded extremely grim; by contrast the problems the Germans faced were actually less bad than often described, especially after the initial retreat in December. The Soviets just were willing to suffered much worse losses to achieve their goals...and they didn't achieve most of their goals.

Unlike the Germans, that did achieve their goals under harsh winter coditions?

 

[BlackDragon98]

There is winter training, and then there is winter training. And then there is thigh of working logistics vs. operating from encirclement.



Unlike the Germans, that did achieve their goals under harsh winter coditions?

The Soviet had more troops to lose.
Casualties don't matter much to a nation with limitless manpower.

 

[tomo pauk]

The Soviet had more troops to lose.
Casualties don't matter much to a nation with limitless manpower.

I dont quite agree with the second sentence.

OTOH - seems like one of German 'plausible decision' is to handwave Soviet manpower advantage, in order to really leverage on a stipulation that they get more manganese for each tank they loose, and get more fuel per each gallon of fuel they loose. Just like in Age Of Empires 2.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

There is winter training, and then there is winter training. And then there is thigh of working logistics vs. operating from encirclement.

Again there the Soviets were largely no better off than the Germans and in some ways worse off; they just had more winter clothing reach the front. It's just funny how people always focus on the German side of the equation, but then ignore the situation the Soviets had to deal with...though that is undoubtedly the fact that the Germans were very upfront about their problems while the Soviets covered theirs up, especially their hideous losses that winter. If it weren't for the extreme blood price that Stalin was willing to play they wouldn't have even gotten as far as they did.

Unlike the Germans, that did achieve their goals under harsh winter coditions?

In fact they largely did: survive. By the time the Soviet winter offensive had started they had stopped their own winter offensive.

 

[tomo pauk]

Again there the Soviets were largely no better off than the Germans and in some ways worse off; they just had more winter clothing reach the front. It's just funny how people always focus on the German side of the equation, but then ignore the situation the Soviets had to deal with...though that is undoubtedly the fact that the Germans were very upfront about their problems while the Soviets covered theirs up, especially their hideous losses that winter. If it weren't for the extreme blood price that Stalin was willing to play they wouldn't have even gotten as far as they did.

I will not sing praises to how Soviet leadership led their war effort, especially during the 1st half of the war.

In fact they largely did: survive. By the time the Soviet winter offensive had started they had stopped their own winter offensive.

Job of German army was not just to survive, but to beat the Soviets, so the Soviets are either unable to continue fight, and/or to ask for peace. In winter of 1941/42, Germans failed.
Job of Soviet armed forces in the same winter was to defend and survive, they defended and survied.

 

[donanton]

1. Test your Torpedos and magnetic detonators in various sea areas rather than just the Baltic. Change in magnetosphere, water density and temperature impacted Torpedos to the point that almost a year of submarine warfare was lost due to faulty equipment. It was still successful overall, thanks to Deck gun and lack of Allied preparation but loses could have been far far worse if proper testing was done.

2. Split Czechoslovakia with Hungary to win them over.

3. Provide far greater aid to Finland during the winter war to indebt them to you.

4. Don't trust Sweden's neutrality. Their supply of information to the British often caused disasters in the Naval department.

5. Explain your plans and reasoning for invasion directions on the Soviet union. Explain the oil situation to the Generals, explain that the time is running out, explain that France and Soviet Union are two different beasts and that taking Moscow does not win the war.

6. Eliminate Canaris, flush Abwehr down the drain. There was no saving it, it was so compromised that nothing could be done with the assets that are already part of it.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I will not sing praises to how Soviet leadership led their war effort, especially during the 1st half of the war.

I would hope not:

Battle of Moscow - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Glantz, in his book When Titans Clashed, gives a figure of 658,279 for the defense phase alone, plus 370,955 for the winter counteroffensive until 7 January 1942.[103] The official Wehrmacht daily casualty reports show 35,757 killed in action, 128,716 wounded, and 9,721 missing in action for the entire Army Group Centre between 1 October 1941 and 10 January 1942.[104]

World War II casualties of the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Per the official count (which has proven notoriously undercounted for the 1941-42 period):

Description	Irrecoverable losses	Wounded & sick	Total losses

1942 1st Q

675,315

1,179,457

1,854,772

So on top of the December 9th-January 7th casualties, the total losses for January-March 1942 was nearly 2 million!

Job of German army was not just to survive, but to beat the Soviets, so the Soviets are either unable to continue fight, and/or to ask for peace. In winter of 1941/42, Germans failed.
Job of Soviet armed forces in the same winter was to defend and survive, they defended and survied.

They defeated the Soviet attacks and inflicted over 2 million casualties per the official count, which is probably too low given the disorder the Soviets experienced for the first 12 months of the war.
German casualties were probably about 15% of those of the Soviets:
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/2011/11/strength-and-loss-data-eastern-front.html
(his source on German casualties: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=100893&hilit=quarter&start=60)

East Front Casualties
		Losses By quarter
	Quarter		German

1942

1q42

280,238

 

[tomo pauk]

They defeated the Soviet attacks and inflicted over 2 million casualties per the official count, which is probably too low given the disorder the Soviets experienced for the first 12 months of the war.
German casualties were probably about 15% of those of the Soviets:
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/2011/11/strength-and-loss-data-eastern-front.html

Again - Wehrmacht was not there in winter of 1941/42 to survive, but to defeat Soviets (so they can have manganese, fuel, food and whatnot to their hart's content). They failed in their task.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Again - Wehrmacht was not there in winter of 1941/42 to survive, but to defeat Soviets (so they can have manganese, fuel, food and whatnot to their hart's content). They failed in their task.

They had stopped their offensive before the Soviet offensive started, at that point they were just trying to survive the winter. Typhoon was over and so was the attempt to end the war in 1941.

 

[tomo pauk]

They had stopped their offensive before the Soviet offensive started, at that point they were just trying to survive the winter. Typhoon was over and so was the attempt to end the war in 1941.

(my bold)
That kinda points in a direction of Soviet prepardness & resistance, as well as German underestimating the enemy, German logistics problems and influence of weather, all the things that have gotten them in that situation in the 1st place.
It is fashionable (not by you) in this thread that most, if not of all of these factors are handwaved so Germans can stroll to the gates of Siberia.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

(my bold)
That kinda points in a direction of Soviet prepardness & resistance, as well as German underestimating the enemy, German logistics problems and influence of weather, all the things that have gotten them in that situation in the 1st place.

How so?
Logistics issues were a serious problem only when the weather turned in October-November, which bought time for the Soviets to rally and move up enough reserves to make the capital effectively untouchable in the time left before winter hit. One way though that Hitler really screwed up was moving 2nd Air Fleet out of AG-Center back to Germany to refit then redeploy to Italy to bomb Malta in early November rather than see through the Moscow battle. That really hurt in terms of combat power though it did help logistics by easing the burden somewhat.

The biggest problem was the diversion in August to the flanks rather than carrying on to Moscow. I know some here disagree about that, but it was the only time to try and pull it off before Soviet reserves and the weather turned the odds against Germany.

 

[tomo pauk]

How so?
Logistics issues were a serious problem only when the weather turned in October-November, which bought time for the Soviets to rally and move up enough reserves to make the capital effectively untouchable in the time left before winter hit. One way though that Hitler really screwed up was moving 2nd Air Fleet out of AG-Center back to Germany to refit then redeploy to Italy to bomb Malta in early November rather than see through the Moscow battle. That really hurt in terms of combat power though it did help logistics by easing the burden somewhat.

The biggest problem was the diversion in August to the flanks rather than carrying on to Moscow. I know some here disagree about that, but it was the only time to try and pull it off before Soviet reserves and the weather turned the odds against Germany.

I don't think I need to add anything there.

 

[TheKennedyMachine.]

Alright, so I'm gonna go ahead here and say we've had too many one off arguments to the point that this is just debating. Let's talk about what the Germans could've done Invasion wise and Technologically wise.

German nuclear weapons program? A better version of Operation Sea Lion? A trade deal for Oil with Venezula rather than the Soviet Union?

C'mon, people.

 

[tomo pauk]

Alright, so I'm gonna go ahead here and say we've had too many one off arguments to the point that this is just debating. Let's talk about what the Germans could've done Invasion wise and Technologically wise.

German nuclear weapons program? A better version of Operation Sea Lion? A trade deal for Oil with Venezula rather than the Soviet Union?

C'mon, people.

Op Sea Lion is a laughing stock on this forum.
Once the war against British is on, the Venezuelan oil is ranked with unobtanium for Germans. Invasion of Soviet union is a shot in a self-inflicted wound for the Germans.
Cannot comment on German nuclear program.

What can be done is to scale down ground and AA forces and invest into stuff that can actually hurt UK.

 

[donanton]

Op Sea Lion is a laughing stock on this forum.
Once the war against British is on, the Venezuelan oil is ranked with unobtanium for Germans. Invasion of Soviet union is a shot in a self-inflicted wound for the Germans.
Cannot comment on German nuclear program.

What can be done is to scale down ground and AA forces and invest into stuff that can actually hurt UK.

1. Sea lion was a scare op and not a serious plan, a last ditch effort to force British to negotiate. The scare was real and money was wasted preparing for it to come. It the commentaries from both land and naval forces show that the plan would never work and wasn’t meant to work.

2. They were running out of oil even with the Soviet trade. Once a certain point is reached in terms of oil reserves Germans would be incapable of offensive action, mechanized forces would be useless and war would turn into waiting for Britain to recruit millions of its colonial troops, equip them perfectly and launch an attack with heavy possibility of America being involved as well. While one can comment on planing or execution of the invasion one can’t really argue with the need for oil and the invasion it caused, nor the fact that German war machine without oil would be useless and more a seal to be clubbed than a combatant. Bombing campaign alone without German opposition would be a delight for the British.

3. The Nuclear program was sabotaged by both the scientists, the outside factors like army, navy and air force demanding tangible research and improvements for themselves.

 

[Captain Homicide]

If it weren't for the extreme blood price that Stalin was willing to pay they wouldn't have even gotten as far as they did

You’re saying that if Stalin was more concerned with casualties the Red Army would have performed worse against the Wehrmacht?

 

[BlackDragon98]

1. Test your Torpedos and magnetic detonators in various sea areas rather than just the Baltic. Change in magnetosphere, water density and temperature impacted Torpedos to the point that almost a year of submarine warfare was lost due to faulty equipment. It was still successful overall, thanks to Deck gun and lack of Allied preparation but loses could have been far far worse if proper testing was done.

2. Split Czechoslovakia with Hungary to win them over.

3. Provide far greater aid to Finland during the winter war to indebt them to you.

4. Don't trust Sweden's neutrality. Their supply of information to the British often caused disasters in the Naval department.

5. Explain your plans and reasoning for invasion directions on the Soviet union. Explain the oil situation to the Generals, explain that the time is running out, explain that France and Soviet Union are two different beasts and that taking Moscow does not win the war.

6. Eliminate Canaris, flush Abwehr down the drain. There was no saving it, it was so compromised that nothing could be done with the assets that are already part of it.

looks pretty good for Nazi Germany, though i have some questions

1. There were not enough subs. Even if every torpedo fired by U-Boats worked, there still wouldn't be enough of them to make a big enough impact.

2. You mean give Slovakia to Hungary right? They had a pretty short war in March 1939 where Hungary almost crushed Slovakia. If Germany supports Hungary then the Slovaks are screwed.

3. Germany can't really give anything to Finland. They are still under the MR treaty, which gave Germany the raw materials it needed to stay alive. Though covert assistance (the CIA type) is not ruled out though. But overt assistance is definitely a no.

4. I agree. Sweden was playing both sides in WW2. They sold iron ore to Germany and intel to the UK. Typical behavior for a country stuck between a rock and a hard place.

5. I disagree on this point. The Germans could never hope to get to the Caucasus by winter 1941. Moscow is far better, as its a rail hub, transport hub, symbolic city, and home of Josef Stalin. If Stalin stayed and the Germans killed him somehow, then resistance would collapse pretty quickly. The Soviet only fought on in 1941 because they were more scared of Stalin than Hitler.

6. Looks like Heydrich is going have a lot more work to do. The SS would probably get rid of all current assets, and maybe if they looked closely enough they might find files about the Oster conspiracy. But that's a whole new TL in itself.

 

[TheKennedyMachine.]

Op Sea Lion is a laughing stock on this forum.
Once the war against British is on, the Venezuelan oil is ranked with unobtanium for Germans. Invasion of Soviet union is a shot in a self-inflicted wound for the Germans.
Cannot comment on German nuclear program.

What can be done is to scale down ground and AA forces and invest into stuff that can actually hurt UK.

Ok, but, like..

Can we stop with the debates, now? Could we talk about the DECISIONS Nazi Germany could've made to improve their perfomance in the war. Y'know..

Like, the title says.

EDIT: Also, like, you guys realize that former Venezuelan Presidents, Eleazer Lopez Contreras and Isaias Medina Angarita, were vocal supporters of Mussolini, right? Like, they could've turned Fascist, Pre Allied persuasion in 1941.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

You’re saying that if Stalin was more concerned with casualties the Red Army would have performed worse against the Wehrmacht?

In 1941 yes. Given how badly set up the USSR was in 1941 even with a few months warning/mobilization they'd still do pretty badly. Having no prep time ITTL like IOTL would end up worse if they just tried to retreat. Now if they deployed far from the border on the old Stalin Line then they would have done quite a bit better, but I didn't read that as what was proposed.