Was there an existential fear of a united Germany?

[OxSpace]

So the were perfectly happy to hand the sizeable German communities in Hungary and Transylvania over to foreign rule? Not what I'd normally expect from German nationalists.

I don't know why you're being dramatic about it, the Transylvania Saxons sent a memorandum to the Frankfurt Parliament for protection and the representatives responded they couldn't do anything. Even the Austrians didn't really care about the Transylvanian Saxons after their display of loyalty in face of the Hungarian Revolution. "Germany" was far more concerned with continuity than propping up enclaves of Germans. It's quite apparent when they were more concerned with Dutch Limburg than with German Banat. It was unanimously voted for the separation of German and non-German countries; Austria could not join as a whole--because of the well-known position of the Austrian government, Austria was hereby de facto excluded.

Anyway how would they get a choice. There were only three ways a united Germany could happen

1) Agreement between the Austrian 'Emperor and the King of Pt russia
b) War in which Austria defeats Prussia
3) War in which Prussia defeats Austria.

These are very narrow-sighted choices that brush aside the influence of the middle and smaller states. I'll quote one of my earlier posts from a separate thread

the dichotomy that it was either Prussia or Austria is greatly overshadowing the attempts from the middle states to combat boths' influence. Von Beust created a mutual pact between Bavaria, Saxony, Hanover and Württemberg that sought greater reforms for the German Confederation. Smaller German plans also weren't out of the question, von Radowitz's Erfurt Union unsurprisingly didn't include the middle-size states.

You don't need Prussia or Austria to have a united Germany--the problem with the smaller German states conglomerating was disagreements in how the state would operate. Bismarck's rapid aggressive simply fast-tracked unification, the German Confederation was on its way to Federalizing which would've effectively kicked out both Prussia and Austria for the reforms supported by the middle states elevated their positions, which were contradictory to the hegemonic nature of either Prussia or Austria. The National Assembly in 1849 toyed with many different ideas ranging from a Republic to a Hereditary Empire. It wasn't a given they had to grovel at the King of Prussia or Emperor of Austria for their goodwill. It wasn't a bygone conclusion that Prussia was inevitably going to be confirmed as the ruling state.

 

[Mikestone8]

The National Assembly in 1849 toyed with many different ideas ranging from a Republic to a Hereditary Empire. It wasn't a given they had to grovel at the King of Prussia or Emperor of Austria for their goodwill. It wasn't a bygone conclusion that Prussia was inevitably going to be confirmed as the ruling state.

How was it of the slightest importance what the Frankfurt assembly did or didn't say?

It was purely a talking shop with no military power of its own. It was allowed to "grandstand" for a spell because Austria was busy fighting the Hungarians, while the King of Prussia had temporarily lost his nerve and made a few concessions to rioters in Berlin whom his army could easily stomp whenever he got over his panic attack and ordered it.
By 1849 playtime was over and the Frankfurt chatterboxes were quickly sent on their way.

Neither Prussia nor Austria would ever allow a union from which they were excluded, and the lesser states were a negligible quantity, as was demonstrated by the ease with which the Prussian army swept them aside in 1866. If Prussia and Austria reached a deal, the small fry would have to fall in. If not, sooner or later they would fight it out and the smaller states would have to go with the winner.

 

[OxSpace]

How was it of the slightest importance what the Frankfurt assembly did or didn't say?

Because we were talking about German pan-nationalism...??? Whether or not it had any power is irrelevant. I'm referencing them because of the ideals they stated in reference to German Unification not because they had any reasonable chance of propping themselves.

Neither Prussia nor Austria would ever allow a union from which they were excluded,

I'm not particularly convinced. Austria quite easily gave up on a union, I don't find it unreasonable that Prussia, if it were in a pickle, giving up on a union. Institutions like the Zollverein weren't exactly all that binding politically.

and the lesser states were a negligible quantity, as was demonstrated by the ease with which the Prussian army swept them aside in 1866

Yeah no, you're completely misinterpreting the poor performance of the lesser German states, it certainly wasn't a lack of quantity. The Battle of Langensalza could have very easily been a total disaster for the Prussians. The German Federal Army could've very easily overpowered the Prussians, but it was unable to agree on uniform warfare with a common battle plan. The general appointment of the supreme commander of the VIII Army Corps in 1866 led to internal conflicts between the polities. It was a massive fumble on their part than simply 'Prussia better and stronger'.

If Prussia and Austria reached a deal, the small fry would have to fall in.

You're really underestimating the influence the lesser states had. Prussia was entirely incapable of reeling in the middle-states without complete open war--something that was dissuaded by outside powers and by the Prussian monarch on multiple occasions. Austria on the other hand had very little desire to have hostile relations with the minor states. It's no coincidence that a majority of the non-tiny polities sided with Austria. During the early Congress of Vienna, both Austria and Prussia were in agreement on how the future German Confederation would look, but it was the smaller states that essentially killed their plans. Austria was also at the whim of the smaller states by having to build alliances to keep check of Prussian influence. They weren't something that your claiming could easily be swept under the rug whenever Austria and Prussia felt like it.

If not, sooner or later they would fight it out and the smaller states would have to go with the winner.

Have to...or forced? Forced, yes, that's what happened iotl. But the circumstances could very well have been different. Have to? Not so much. The compellation of joining with Prussia after the war was fairly circumstantial, for Bavaria's case, it was the very convenient appointment of the Prince of Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst, a Prussophile, as Minister President. Baden wanted to join the NGC from the get-go, but Bismarck refused. If the Autumn Crisis had sparked war, the Prussian union would be far smaller or Prussia kicked out entirely. In which case, Austria's leisurely maintenance of the existing German Confederation would take a much different turn.

 

[Mikestone8]

I'm not particularly convinced. Austria quite easily gave up on a union, I don't find it unreasonable that Prussia, if it were in a pickle, giving up on a union. Institutions like the Zollverein weren't exactly all that binding politically.

Giving up (or just postponing) a union is not at all the same as agreeing to one from which they are shut out. Neither Austria nor Prussia will accrept *that*n short of defeat in war

Yeah no, you're completely misinterpreting the poor performance of the lesser German states, it certainly wasn't a lack of quantity. The Battle of Langensalza could have very easily been a total disaster for the Prussians. The German Federal Army could've very easily overpowered the Prussians,

Which wouldn't have mattered a jot after the Prussians won Koniggratz, , That would release ample Prussian forces to retrieve the situation

Because we were talking about German pan-nationalism...??? Whether or not it had any power is irrelevant. I'm referencing them because of the ideals they stated in reference to German Unification not because they had any reasonable chance of propping themselves.

.
Really? I thought e were discussing whther a nion includig Austria was possible - which it certainly would have been had Austria either reached a deal with Prussia or defeated her.

Nor do I see why German nationalists should have long-term problems' with a situation where they could draft Hungarians etc into a German army. Once it was a fait accompli they'd soon get used to it.