Was a French victory ever possible in Mexico??

samcster94

Banned
I always saw the 1860's conflict as poorly planned and one sided. The French were biting off more than they could chew when they took over Mexico to rule as a client state. Could the French have won, even if the slaveholding Confederacy somehow miraculously survived???
 
Sell Sonora and Chihuahua to the US in late 1865. Very unpopular but negates the rebellion and may have actually been proposed. Done.
 
Very unlikely. The French would need to basically save scum to make sure a lot of events go their way.

If the CSA survives, it'd be because of British intervention (which a competent American leadership could avoid and which could lead to Russia joining the USA's side) and then the French have 2 hostile American republics on their Mexican border.

Whenever there's a hit in stability in either France that requires troops to leave or Mexico in general, new revolts will break out. The Empire would have to last for several peaceful generations AND become massively popular to survive.

Then there's Prussia, Russia, and Britain to consider. How do you keep them from messing with Mexico to mess with you?

Then there's Maximillian being too liberal for his conservative base. What's to stop a conservative general from overthrowing him after the liberals are dealth with?

As much as I like Nap III, he really needed someone to say no to his foreign policy ideas.
 
Yes, it is just very hard given the way it happened and who was in it. (Maximilian was just one of those unique figures in history that never had a chance between his unique liberal and conservative views, and being such a reformer and France giving up on him, and so on.)

Offing Juarez would be a great blow to the Liberals. But they still be around for a while. Have the conservatives work and compromise with Maximilian with "We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."

Have Lincoln not be assassinated. He reached a gentleman agreement with Maximilian, Lincoln was francophile and would want to avoid a new war to focus on the Reconstruction of the USA.

The biggest issue is the need for a heir, and being seen as a Freach puppet.
 
Am heir should not be a problem. As per OTL, Maximilian could adopt the Iturbide heir.

While he adopted the Iturbide heirs, he didn't intend to be a placeholder for them (He saw the Iturbides as not of royal blood). He did have a rather elaborate charade towards his brother Karl Ludwig, for one of his children to be heir to Mexico, as well as his other brother Ludwig Viktor. (So we could have Franz Ferdinand become the Mexican Emperor.)

That, or have Maxime Weygand really be the son of Carlotta.
 
While he adopted the Iturbide heirs, he didn't intend to be a placeholder for them (He saw the Iturbides as not of royal blood). He did have a rather elaborate charade towards his brother Karl Ludwig, for one of his children to be heir to Mexico, as well as his other brother Ludwig Viktor. (So we could have Franz Ferdinand become the Mexican Emperor.)

That, or have Maxime Weygand really be the son of Carlotta.
Franz Ferdinand in Mexico? Wow.....

What about putting an Aztec descendant in the Spanish nobility on the throne?
 
Am heir should not be a problem. As per OTL, Maximilian could adopt the Iturbide heir.

While he adopted the Iturbide heirs, he didn't intend to be a placeholder for them (He saw the Iturbides as not of royal blood). He did have a rather elaborate charade towards his brother Karl Ludwig, for one of his children to be heir to Mexico, as well as his other brother Ludwig Viktor. (So we could have Franz Ferdinand become the Mexican Emperor.)

That, or have Maxime Weygand really be the son of Carlotta.

That was the plan,yes; to get one of his Habsburgs relations to part with a family member who could keep the Mexican throne in the dynasty. However, if his wink and nudging doesn't produce what he wants, there's a very real chance Maxy ends up hoisted by his own petard. Especially if the Mexican nobility insist on the matter as he gets older and leverage the possability of stauhcher support/concessions on some of his liberal agenda to help him build a stable regeime and "legacy" (With the ultimate plan of reversing the changes once the old Austrian croaks)
 
The only way for France to turn Mexico into a puppet state is if the CSA wins the Civil War otherwise the US cites the Monroe Doctrine tells France to GTFO (The US Government was ready to send in Sheridan and Sherman to kick them out). Even with a victorious CSA its most likely France would lose Mexico anyway as a Confederate influence (being closer geographically) would override that of the French, especially once the French monarchy is overthrown in Paris in 1870 (...again)
 
If France sends more troops during the initial invasion - and I know that'd really stretch their logistical abilities, so suitable bribes to Britain are probably in order (and that might be the POD, even) - then the French could very plausibly seize power during the initial invasion. I don't know enough about the details to go further, but that starting strength can only help.
 
I think the idea of possible Confederate influence over Mexico is overstated.

Argee. The South would be too busy trying to hold itself together giving it weak central government and the fact many states always told Richmond to 'shove it' even during the Civil War, the stronger North, and the large chance Texas being the first to bail and it would be the North and Mexico helping it.
 
While he adopted the Iturbide heirs, he didn't intend to be a placeholder for them (He saw the Iturbides as not of royal blood). He did have a rather elaborate charade towards his brother Karl Ludwig, for one of his children to be heir to Mexico, as well as his other brother Ludwig Viktor. (So we could have Franz Ferdinand become the Mexican Emperor.)

This comes up a bit, but I don't think I've ever found any substantiation for this claim that he did not intend to use the Iturbide heirs as his own. He had already (much against his will) relinquished his rights to the Hapsburg throne on the insistence of Franz Joseph, and he might be seen as trying to circumvent the agreement made their by adopting a Hapsburg male heir and so the Emperor would be more than willing to nip that in the bud.

He also spent a considerable sum on adopting the Iturbide heirs, both as a way to ensure they could never present a challenge to his claim, and so that they might place further legitimacy to his dynasty. Based on what information we have it seems as though they were to be groomed to be 'European' rulers by Maximillian and if he and Carlota had an heir, they would be the spares.

Otherwise they would most likely end up marrying a Hapsburg princess.
 
It's possible for a French victory in Mexico. Up until late 1865 they were militarily winning the war, and it was only when the US began running guns to the rebels and placing diplomatic pressure on France that the rebels began to have success in the field and Napoleon abandoned the project in 1866.

However, had a few things happened differently, a military victory in Mexico is possible.

Firstly, after the fall of Puebla in 1863, many generals (including Porifio Diaz, Jesus Ortega, and Ignacio Comonfort) who would later go on to greatly aid the Republican cause were captured and due to be exiled to France. Post surrender many escaped in the confusing series of defections and the transport of captured material to Veracruz. Had these three especially been moved overseas to a nice imprisonment then the military quality of the Republican armies in the field suffers greatly. And many Republicans, for want of leadership, might have simply cut deals with the Imperialists to just get ahead.

Secondly, had Juarez been killed anytime between 1862 and 1865, then the whole 'natural' leadership of the Republic collapses as their is no legitimate centralizing figure to rally behind. Sure resistance would continue, but it would be that headless and polarizing kind that sees the Republicans split apart over time. Worse there is no 'central authority' for the US to actually back in Mexico and send support to. Maximillian might become the de-facto head they are forced to recognize.

Thirdly, had a more clear command structure for the new Mexican Imperial Army been established, it might have prevented the chaos and inability which plagued it, allowing Maximillian to have a professional force loyal to him which would have been capable of defeating the rebels on their own.

If the Confederacy had survived somehow, the French task would have been easier since the Union suddenly has far bigger problems on its plate than a violation of the Monroe Doctrine.
 
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