War or Dishonour

Even with the direct quotes from OTL makes me shake my head and shudder at what the appeasers did that day. I know I am using hindsight and know what was to come, butvthis was not one of the West's finist hour. :(

Thanks for the update.

Agreed, a reason why I used (almost) direct quotes was exactly this. The sheer lack of any ability to see the bigger picture is shocking.
 
Agreed, a reason why I used (almost) direct quotes was exactly this. The sheer lack of any ability to see the bigger picture is shocking.

Well I will commend you for finding the right quotes then. Justbtoo many around the world were willing to turn blind eyes to Hitler and others of his slimey kind. Afterwards they will say they were always anti Hitler.:rolleyes:
 
That can be no doubt however that the vast majority of the House were appeasers that day. All the party leaders gave speeches praising Mr Chamberlain; from Atlee down to Sinclair. The only member to voice disgust was William Gallagher of the Communists. The whole event was electrifying and I found myself getting quite caught up in the emotion. It was decided. With incredible speed the Prime Minister flew out to Munich to meet the other leaders the following day.

Very interesting. The anti-appeasers have won a major victory relative to OTL, but of course they don't know it.

It appears that there is a war anyway, that Britain eventually wins (?) - or at least avoids conquest. Also that Britain, ultimately, blocks any territorial cession to Germany in 1938.

My understanding is that if Hitler had decided on war in the face of British-French-Czechoslovak opposition in 1938, the Schwarze Kapelle would have moved against him. It appears that doesn't happen.

There are other questions to be answered (by you, of course), in due time: does the war start in 1938? Or does Hitler back down, accelerate German armament, and start the war later? Possibly with Czechoslovakia in the role of OTL Poland, either in 1938 or later?

In any case, subscribed.
 
It is a little ironic that the Communist Gallagher voted no, even as the Soviets were still aiding Hitler under the table and trading with him.
 
It is a little ironic that the Communist Gallagher voted no, even as the Soviets were still aiding Hitler under the table and trading with him.

everyone was trading with Hitler at the moment. the relations between Soviet and Germany at this time was very sour and Soviet would boastfully defend Czechoslovakian independence but the western powers had no such interest, hence no intervention IOTL. German-Soviet rapprochement happened after Munich not before.
 
It is a little ironic that the Communist Gallagher voted no, even as the Soviets were still aiding Hitler under the table and trading with him.
In 1938 Soviets at least verbally supported Prague against Nazis. It was in 1939/40 when they told communists not to participate in imperialist war.
 
746px-Winston_Churchill_and_Bernard_Baruch_talk_in_car_in_front_of_Baruch%27s_home%2C_14_April_1961.jpg

Part 5

“The sight of those two old, visibly decaying, men going at each other with the passion and intensity of a pair of prize-fighters in their prime electrified me and the crowd.” Jeremy Wolfenden: Out and About in London and Moscow

From the Oxford Union Debate 1956 Wilson vs Churchill.

Moderator: Mr. Churchill has indicated that he would like to respond. As many of you are no doubt aware Mr. Churchill is one of our most distinguished academics here at Oxford, and his History of the English-Speaking Peoples has been a continual bestseller. He has seen an extremely varied career as a soldier, journalist, MP, painter, he served as First Lord of the Admiralty in the First Great War and Secretary of State for War during the Second Great War. He has been both a Liberal and A Conservative. He is perhaps unique in the history of this university as being the only professor appointed without an undergraduate degree, in acknowledgement of his outstanding work in his field. Mr. Churchill, you may begin.



Churchill: Thank you Mr. MacAdam, though I hope you are more prepared when you present your thesis to me.



In 1938, this country ensured that debates such as this could continue, that we would not hang Mr. MacAdam here for being Scottish. That he can write whatever he desires in his blasted thesis. Similarly, and on a more serious note we ensured that freedom of speech, freedom of thought and most importantly the freedom simply to be existed. Sir Horace has described at length our loss of place in the world, our loss of prestige and power. I cannot deny this. Yet know that it was these feelings of loss that led to the annexation of Austria and the Sudeten Crisis. If we do not learn from them then there is no hope for peace in Europe. Is there any need for further floods of agony? Is the only lesson of history to be that mankind is unteachable? Let there be justice, mercy and freedom. The people have only to will it, and all will achieve their hearts' desire. We have proved our ideals in the harsh fire of the furnace; we have struggled, fought and died to ensure that dictators, tyrants and demagogues shall have no hold over us. Now let us prove that we stand for greater, nobler ideals than they.



There is another question which arises out of this. Can peace, goodwill, and confidence be built upon submission to wrong-doing backed by force? What world would we be creating if justice was merely doled out upon the weak by the strong? Consider, had we allowed Herr Hitler a free hand to descend upon Prague. Where would he turn next? Warsaw? Brussels? Paris? London? Would we raise a hand only when tanks were rolling down Whitehall? For this is surely what would happen. Herr Hitler built his following on intolerance and preying on the weakness of his opponents. He would take a slice, and then another. Constantly saying that this was all he wanted. We would have shown weakness in failing to defend Prague, and he would have capitalised on it. Dictators know no moderation; they seek to kill the ideas which are repellent to them, when they cannot defeat them in argument they ban speech, when they cannot convince you to think otherwise they ban books and films, finally when they cannot make you into them they kill you. Ladies, Gentlemen; I am a product of the empire, I rode with the last charge of the British cavalry. I saw battle in the Sudan, the North-West Frontier and South Africa before most of your fathers were even born and I can categorically state this. The loss of the status, wealth, power of this country is insignificant next to the knowledge that people throughout Europe do not have to live under a regime like that of Adolf Hitler.
 
Last edited:
Cool retort by Churchill and I can only imagine some of tbe anguish and pain he must feel for the Empire ITTL. We know war and battle is coming soon. We know Hitler and his cronies are defeated, and that Churchill never becomes PM. Still lots of blanks to be filled it.


One with the timeline please. :cool:
 
Pretty good Churchillian rhetoric, but...
"I saw battle in the Sudan, the North-West Frontier and South Africa before most of your fathers or even grandfathers were even born..."
(emphasis added)

That part wouldn't be true and Churchill wouldn't state it. His war career was from 1897-1903 (roughly); this debate is in 1956, and the student audience are about 20.

Someone who is 20 in 1956 could have a grandfather born after 1903, but it would require two 18-year generations in between.
 
Pretty good Churchillian rhetoric, but...
(emphasis added)

That part wouldn't be true and Churchill wouldn't state it. His war career was from 1897-1903 (roughly); this debate is in 1956, and the student audience are about 20.

Someone who is 20 in 1956 could have a grandfather born after 1903, but it would require two 18-year generations in between.

Noted and changed. One has a tendancy to get carried away when writing Churchill. :rolleyes:

Thanks to everyone for the good feedback, There should be an update looking at the Czechoslovak side of things tonight.
 
As a matter of fact Churchill was First Lord of the Admiralty untill 1915 at the time of the Gallipoli landings and was held largely responsable for that debacle, therfore he had real experience of effect of command decisions made by politicians and there consequences. further in 1915/16 he served in the trenches of the western front as a battalion commander, Some would clame Pluegsteert(Plugstreet, to the British Army) was a quiet sector, though anywhere in Belguim in the winter and spring of 1916 would have been horrific to us today,
 
stock-footage-prague-castle-at-sunrise-time-lapse.jpg

(A sunrise over Prague Castle)

Part 6
“When I was a little boy, I used to repeat – if at first you don’t succeed, try, try, try, try again. That is what I am doing. When I come back, I hope I may be able to say as Hotspur says in Henry IV that out of this nettled danger, we plucked this flower safely.”
Neville Chamberlain 29th September 1938, before leaving for Munich.

From BBC World Service Interview with Prokop Drtina, former aide to Foreign Minister Beneš:

BBC: Pan Drtina, what was the situation in September 1938 from a Czechoslovak perspective?

(Drtina laughs)
Drtina: What’s a diplomatic way of saying hopeless? Our relationship with the Sudeten Germans had always been difficult but it had never been such a direct threat to our security before. The Sudetenland possessed the majority of our extensive border fortifications, natural frontiers, not to mention the Škoda works at Pilsen where most of our weaponry was produced. While it certainly had a German speaking majority, handing it over would have rendered us defenceless. The reports we were hearing from Jan Masaryk in London were not encouraging. While the French seemed ready to help they did not want to take action without the British, and the British… well Chamberlain. If we had fought without support no doubt it would have been heroic, and we would have been able to make them fight for every inch but all it would be doing would be delaying the inevitable. We didn’t want our country and our culture to go through something like 1863.


BBC: The Polish Uprising?


Drtina: Yes; glorious, heroic and in the end futile. Producing only gallant cavalry charges and leaving the cities in ruins. That wasn’t what we wanted for our country. We were aware of the vultures circling as well; Hungary desired Slovakia back and we had previously had border skirmishes with the Poles. If we were alone then they would grab what they could. Of course we had alliances with Romania and Yugoslavia too, but with such a force arrayed against us we couldn’t realistically expect them to provide much, if it had been Hungary alone then certainly … but Germany? Our Little Entente was a strong alliance against the weak and a weak alliance against the strong.


BBC: What about the Soviets?


Drtina: How? Through Poland or Romania? Poland would never allow it, we knew they were in talks with Romania but didn’t hope for much considering the claim on Bessarabia. Planes we could get but one doesn’t win a war through airpower alone. We did at least have representation at Munich, the question was how we could use that to keep the territory.

BBC: How was the decision reached then? You only had a day to concoct a plan.

Drtina: It was one of those brilliant thoughts which come to one while under pressure. Masaryk had first presented the genesis of it in his message to Prague and Pan Beneš, General Syrový and Pan Hodža sat up late into the night at the Foreign Ministry building on Loretánské Náměstí hammering out the details. It was a quite a gamble for us, but what else could we do? I don’t believe anyone got any sleep that night, maybe on the trip to Munich, I didn’t notice anyone then though we were all far too nervous. Milan Hodža’s son Fedor was an aide at the Foreign Ministry and I can remember standing out on the balcony of the Ministry with him, just around sunrise, looking east towards the Hrad (Prague Castle) with our cigarettes in our hands, our hands trembling and both of us wondering if that would be the last time we would see it.

BBC: And the meeting itself?

Drtina: It seems strange, even revolting, to say it but we were saved by one man: Adolf Hitler.
 
Last edited:
All this teasing is really irritating Mister!:mad:;)
I am looking forward when you will have the big reveal on how things turn out. It is nice to get to know some of how otgers reflect on the past and what is alluded to.

Keep up the good work.
 
I presume that Hitler either did something stupid which turned the British against him or threw a tantrum after proving unable to get the Sudetenland easily and then stormed off in a huff.

I like your portrayal of Chamberlain, chopperdave, especially your delicate double-meaning in that phrase "if at first you don’t succeed, try, try, try, try again"—he perceives it as perseverance for peace and a refusal to give up, but the audience perceives it as stupidity and a basic failure to understand who he's dealing with. Beautifully done.

And your cliffhanger is annoying. :D
 
Long time without an update due to my thesis and work but hopefully can get this updated regularly now.

225px-Prokop_Drtina_-_barva.jpg

(Prokop Drtina at his office. Prague:1945)

Part 7

“[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here because of a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing. It seems still more impossible that a quarrel which has already been settled in principle should be the subject of war.”
Neville Chamberlain: Radio Broadcast of the 27th September 1938
[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]From BBC World Service Interview with Prokop Drtina, former aide to Foreign Minister Beneš:

Drtina: We left early that morning, hardly any of us had slept and such was our anxiety over the coming meeting that we got little on the way. I remember crossing our border defenses near Pilzeň, our convoy stopped briefly and I left to find a tree to relieve myself. Suddenly I heard German voices. Fearing infiltrators or Henleinites I suddenly turned only to find myself facing two Jewish soldiers from our army. Prague Jews, of the type you see in Josefov today. I must have struck quite a comic figure to them, their laughter was quickly silenced by their Četař (Sergeant) who called them out for being a bunch of lazy žids. We had also passed the Škoda Works on our way through, a shame what happened to them. It was easy to feel that these and our fortifications were strong and that we would prevail. General Syrový must have seen me examining them with pride for he tapped me on the shoulder and said: "It won't matter, if the Germans come all these will do is slow them. The general had been a veteran of the Czechoslovak Legions during the last war, losing one of his eyes in the process. Later when Russia collapsed he had held vast tracts of the Trans-Siberian railway against the Bolsheviks. To me, in my late 30s then, he seemed an emblem of the struggle that I had missed. It all seemed much more heroic back then; it gave us a nation, our freedom and the chance to bring forth a western democracy.
We still weren't sure whether to fight. Any conflict would bring bombing of cities. Our airforce was too small, the Luftwaffe too large. The Soviets had promised aircraft in the event of hostilities but there were problems with getting through Romania and we were by no means certain of their quality, or even the accuracy of their promises. Was it even worth fighting? If our cities were to be destroyed, we all remembered the newsreels of Guernica. If our culture and our heritage was to be wiped away then what would it matter if we kept our state?
[/FONT]


[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]BBC: And what did you decide?

Drtina: We already had a plan. We hoped that it would sort itself out, that Herr Hitler would back down with France and Britain aligned against him. It was you could say, a misjudgement, but that seems a rather crass way of putting it considering what happened. Fascism is a strange beast, even today, it is the realm of the fanatic. There is that romantic quality to so much of it, that spirit and will determine who wins and who loses.
[/FONT]


[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]BBC: So you didn't expect the meeting to turn out the way it did.

Drtina: We had hoped that Herr Hitler would be reasonable. *laughs* I know! We thought him a statesman, one who would back down once he saw the opposition of the Entente. Suffice to say we were as shocked as anyone with the result.
[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]William Barrington-Ward. Memoirs. 1935-1957 [/FONT]


[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Westminster was chaos. The speed of the Prime Minister's movements caught everyone off guard, including the Foreign Office. It seemed that no sooner had the conference been announced than he had sprouted wings and flown to Munich. The business of government was supposed to continue but all the MPs, all the civil servants, and all the journalists were focused on one thing. We were watching the skies for when he would return. In the last war people had watched for Zeppelins, and bombers. Here we were fixedly focused on the return of an old man with, hopefully, a piece of paper.[/FONT]


[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]My usual lunches and dinner with those in the know had all but ceased. The powerful, wealthy and influential in London were all as removed from what was happening in Munich as I was. In a reversal it was I, the journalist, who was assumed to know something. It seemed people thought the press would hear about the results before the cabinet. I dined at a restaurant near Victoria and saw some god-awful Shaw at the theatre. All of this was merely going through the motions of a London life. Really we were, all of us, waiting for the barbarians.[/FONT]


[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Hans Bernd Gisevius. [/FONT][FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]To The Bitter End ([/FONT][FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Bis zum bitteren Ende[/FONT][FONT=Calibri, sans-serif])[/FONT][FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]. 1946[/FONT]


[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]The Ministry of the Interior offices felt like a zoo to me. Although I had done little in actively opposing the regime, I felt that every day would bring a confidant naming me or some unwise remark being picked up on. I had a meeting with Hans Oster of the Abwehr, nothing out of the ordinary. We knew each other previously and sometimes we would seek pieces of information from the intelligence agencies. I believe this meeting was about Bolshevik subversion within the Reich. It progressed normally enough, it was only when my colleague left for a coffee that Oster told me.[/FONT]


[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]He, and some like minded figures, were worried the possible invasion of Czechoslovakia. I attempted to brush it off with some humorous remark but he held me tightly by the shoulder and quickly, hurriedly asked if he could depend upon the Ministry of the Interior. It would have seemed ridiculous but for that stare. Here was a man convinced that there was only one way to save his country. If that meant betraying his oath, so be it. [/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]I replied that I knew some like minded people. “How many?” he asked. I told him, it was a rather small number. “It's enough, be ready to move. You'll know it when it happens.” My colleague returned with a coffee and some pastry and then we returned to hunting Bolsheviks. [/FONT]
 
Top