War guilt clause in a CP victory scenario?

My opinion is that there would be no real need for one on the part of the CPs but the Germans are rather stickler legalistic types who likely do weave it in. They declared war upon Russia as a legal point, and perhaps honorable point, based upon the mobilization, rather than more diplomatically letting Russia officially make the first fatal last step to war. But who is at fault? Personally "guilt" is a bit useless really, but the shot first fired was by Serbia in an act of what today we would clearly condemn as terrorism. Russia had given the blessing, thus putting them next in line and France had backed Russia's aggressive foreign policy, including its support for Serbia, so they are co-conspirators. The UK next steps into the dock by backing France. Case closed. If you want to make it dramatic, then Austria contributed by annexing B-H, pushing into the Balkans for more, and Germany conspired to leverage the crime for gain, its invasion of Belgium was not in self-defense but a new crime in the midst of mayhem. And Italy is guilty of picking pockets while things are messy. The USA looting their shops while everyone is away. Japan in another petty thief and the OE should have kept their noses out of other people's quarrels. One can parse it to share guilt or blame right round. But here, if Germany is more than merely undefeated, in any measure victorious, it will pin guilt and demand its pounds of flesh.

A complaint I have in most of these scenarios is about the outrage shown for how "harsh" the CP might be while rather meekly apologizing for the Versailles Treaty or its kin. On one hand the fact is that to the victory goes the spoils, the sad truth is that these nations were in fact barely beyond the feudal, swapping people, territory and treasure like chattel, to lose a war invited execution, slavery and pillage only slightly less brutal than Rome. What Versailles teaches us is that we thought we were better than a vindictive peace, conqueror's privilege and this feudal notion of "woe be the vanquished." And to continue the rant, I am not feeling Germany can do unto the Entente as was done unto them. Very best case, the "peace" in the East gives them breathing room and unwinds the stranglehold of Blockade, even the suggestion of it should cause London to blink. But Russia out is not a magic bullet to victory as OTL proved. The CP are very broken, they cannot outright win. And despite OTL, I do not actually see a B-L, without an inevitable American entry, Russia either concedes or crumbles, Germany grabs some more but shifting West likely grabs less, gaining less, an Offensive in the West being the same gamble, maybe the same last gasp.

The CPs could at best win a stalled and stagnated "victory," France still had its Gold reserves, was industrially producing its arms and had manpower left, what it did not have was the will to conduct any more offensives. The Empire had enough wealth and resources to carry on, the domestic reality was they were edging towards where Germany was getting, an internal break of all the seams holding the thing together, Germany could only achieve a victory if France gave up, something I think was not happening, but it could drive deeper in, costing them more, stretching the British effort to breaking, making any Entente victory utterly hopeless, just a question of what can be salvaged. And even then, the worst case should be some Korea like or split Germany like stalled border, occupied France, conquered Belgium, a cold war like stand off again more like the armistice only end to Korea upon the best line that can be held. Best case is some rational negotiations that unwind three, four or five years of bloody hateful warring, the acceptance that it truly was "all for nothing." More likely we fall somewhere in between. But for some near ASB fall of dominos, the CPs cannot enforce a Versailles style icing of their crappy cake. Our Versailles clothed the Entente in laurels, and in my opinion is why the generation 20 years in future was so demoralized, they saw right through that once they sobered up. Sleights, punishments, guilt and so on would not bring back the dead or repair the soul, it did not restore faith in King, country or even God, this war left enough doubt as to just how noble was the European civilization.

Thus, a guilt clause is rather more window dressing and I think something the CP cannot even hope to hang to fit, the end in a CP "victory" should look far less clean, far more what can be compromised, it will fall to horse trading, bluff, loss and regret, no one gets what they want, they get what they can haggle. And from that it all gets quite fictional, whatever was desired must fall as reality grinds forward. And as always, despite the real weaknesses and problems, the only two powers at play are Germany and the UK, and of the two, in the peace the UK holds one extra card, it alone can remain undefeated, and that means the lens must be what is London willing to give to get Germany to settle, what does London really, really want, what is she willing to lose more to get? That is no British-wank, even at the best outcome, Germany overrunning all of France, Germany is not in position to invade or exploit such a win, and to stop it Britain goes deeper into debt, loss and breakage, as we roll back from such fantasy, the Empire can shape the peace but not dictate it, the subtle truth should be that what comes after relies upon the British being smarter, better and more visionary, London will either found something better or let it all fall through their fingers.

My vision is that the British push Germany back to start, restore Belgium and re-secure France, moderate German gains, offset the design for continental hegemony, weaken her grasp on everything, especially what is developing in Eastern Europe, hoping to break the CP into disunited parts, without giving up more than needed. And that is a rather flexible blank page, barely any lines to color within, a grossly variable future. I doubt that East and West Germany or North and South Korea were how any of the powers wanted to wrap up those wars, the early deals never meant to solidify, lines drawn, sides taken, nothing was as it was meant to last decades but that was how two wars ended with each side victorious enough, undefeated enough, willing to cease fire, intending to settle it more to their liking yet ending with a bodge. As unsatisfying as it reads, the better ATL will be a bodge, messier and less predictably settled than OTL, even the veneer of victory and justice and punishment will be missing, and perhaps that is what the war of 1914 - 1918 needed, not even the pretend that it was Great because it was for something greater.
 

Riain

Banned
I think a key difference is that a CP win would be by dismemberment of the Entente; Russia first, then France then Britain. The Germans won't (didn't) pin blame on Russia likely because they were still fighting France and Britain, and by the time Britain stands alone to be defeated it is too late and unrealistic to pin the blame on them.
 
Well the biggest problem whith the war gust clause is that the alises dint even need it ithere, even legalisticly that kind of clause was very rare and was only put it to make France feel morally superior, a nessesaty inorder to get America and the UK help in securing the reparations France despritly needed. Legalisticly it wasn't neseary or get reparations and that more then anything is why it probably won't happen in a cp victory, hell it wasn't added to Brest latovsk why would Germany add it gust to the treaty whith the west?
 
Well the biggest problem whith the war gust clause is that the alises dint even need it ithere, even legalisticly that kind of clause was very rare and was only put it to make France feel morally superior, a nessesaty inorder to get America and the UK help in securing the reparations France despritly needed. Legalisticly it wasn't neseary or get reparations and that more then anything is why it probably won't happen in a cp victory, hell it wasn't added to Brest latovsk why would Germany add it gust to the treaty whith the west?

Let me clear up some things.
The "war guilt" clause wasn't rare, it wasn't only put on Germany (Austria, Hungary, Bulgaria and the OE all got variations on it), and it was absolutely not about moral superiority.
And it is the Germans who declared war on France after an unacceptable ultimatum.
It is the Germans who invaded Belgium and raped it.
 
Would they bother? The French-Prussian war ended with a treaty saying basically "there was a war, we won, you lost, pay us", and the French did not exactly stick to it anyway - Article 1 would have prohibited revanchism.

OTL war guilt clause only stuck with sufficient Germans becasue after the second war the winning armies stayed around for decades to reform German society, CP ww1 win leaves little room for a second war, Russia on it's own can not do it, France is broken, only the UK is left relatively unharmed but politics is bound to be a mess for a long time - losing wars does not make one popular.
 
OTL war guilt clause only stuck with sufficient Germans becasue after the second war the winning armies stayed around for decades to reform German society

The Cold War helped with that. The last thing the West Germans wanted was to be on their own facing the Russians. It also helped that the Nazis lost popularity fast in mid to late 1944-1945. You can't ride to power on promises of military glory and not lose a lot of that popularity when you are getting your butt kicked everywhere.
 
Well, dear @DracoLazarus, let me clear up some things for you.

I'm rather sure @cjc meant with "rare" rare in previous history. If you argue against then I assume you have some examples of comparable 'clauses' in previous peace treaties/treaties to end armed conflicts. ... and I would be eager to hear of them because neither the treaty of Brest-Litowsk nor the treaty of Frankfurt (war of 1870/71) had such 'clauses'.
The latter simply stated that France has to pay 5 billion (in angloamerican counting) Francs. Full-Stop. Nothing more. No 'reasoning' for the demand at all (Article 7 of the Treaty of Frankfurt of 10th May 1871 and Article II of the Preliminaries of 26th February 1871).
The former between the CP and Russia explicitly stated in Article 9 not to pay any reparations or other war related indemnities at all (Translation from Avalon-Project : The contracting parties mutually renounce all indemnifications for their war expenses, that is, for government expenses for conducting the war, as well as all compensation of war losses, that is, such losses as were caused them and their citizens in the zone of war by military operations, including all requisitions made in the enemy's country.).

Now what are your examples for clauses as Article 231 of ToV not being rare ?

Let's start with the text o the Article 231 of the ToV most of the time associated with/equated to the "War Guilt" as the 'template' we might assess the other treaties against and as a 'reminder' what we are talking about:
The Allied and Associated Governments affirm and Germany accepts the responsibility of Germany and her allies for causing all the loss and damage to which the Allied and Associated Governments and their nationals have been subjected as a consequence of the war imposed upon them by the aggression of Germany and her allies.​


Now the Article 177 of the Treaty of Saint-Germain (interestingly making 'only' german Austria liable) :
The Allied and Associated Governments affirm and Austria accepts the responsibility of Austria and her Allies for causing the loss and damage to which the Allied and Associated Governments and their nationals have been subjected as a consequence of the war imposed upon them by the aggression of Austria-Hungary and her Allies.​

Almost - but just that - the sane as the according Article of the ToV. Wee but for a lawyer very ... interesting difference :
Germany is made responsible for ALL - what ever this might include after the arbitrary mindset of the victor - the loss and damage, Austria only for loss and damage as it seems a still undefined and therefore perhaps in its scope still negotiable entity.


The according text Article 161 of the Treaty of Trianon regarding Hungary :
The Allied and Associated Governments affirm and Hungary accepts the responsibility of Hungary and her allies for causing the loss and damage to which the Allied and Associated Governments and their nationals have been subjected as a consequence of the war imposed upon them by the aggression of Austria-Hungary and her allies.​

Quite the same as for Austria. Also with the same 'exclusion' (of "all") as for Austria.
However, their 'moral' responsibility - aka felt/perceived "guilt" - is somewhat ... relativated as their forerunning stately body - Austria-Hungary - and its ally is blamed. They the hungarians are its unfortunate heirs only (as might be argued).


Lets's look into Article 121 of the Treaty of Neuilly-sue-Seine regarding Bulgaria :
Bulgaria recognises that, by joining in the war of aggression which Germany and Austria-Hungary waged against the Allied and Associated Powers, she has caused to the latter losses and sacrifices of all kinds, for which she ought to make complete reparation​

Here we are aquite some way away from the above. Bulgaria hasn't caused or forced anything upon the winners - Entente - but merely joined a war Germany and Austria-Hungary are responsible for. Unfortunatly the not-winning side of the conflict.
They are also explicitly made liable for "repair-ations" to the winners losses by their joining - aka only the theatres they were engaged with each other.


Last but not least the Treaty of Sevres and its Article 231 (interestingly same number as in the ToV) :
Turkey recognises that by joining in the war of aggression which Germany and Austria-Hungary waged against the Allied Powers she has caused to the latter losses and sacrifices of all kinds for which she ought to make complete reparation​

Same as to Bulgaria above : not "guilty" only liable to the losses they actually caused. ... with room for negotiation as not defined as in the ToV ("all").


These ARE esp. regarding diplomatical legalism considerable differences.
 
Well, dear @DracoLazarus, let me clear up some things for you.

I'm rather sure @cjc meant with "rare" rare in previous history. If you argue against then I assume you have some examples of comparable 'clauses' in previous peace treaties/treaties to end armed conflicts. ... and I would be eager to hear of them because neither the treaty of Brest-Litowsk nor the treaty of Frankfurt (war of 1870/71) had such 'clauses'.
The latter simply stated that France has to pay 5 billion (in angloamerican counting) Francs. Full-Stop. Nothing more. No 'reasoning' for the demand at all (Article 7 of the Treaty of Frankfurt of 10th May 1871 and Article II of the Preliminaries of 26th February 1871).
The former between the CP and Russia explicitly stated in Article 9 not to pay any reparations or other war related indemnities at all (Translation from Avalon-Project : The contracting parties mutually renounce all indemnifications for their war expenses, that is, for government expenses for conducting the war, as well as all compensation of war losses, that is, such losses as were caused them and their citizens in the zone of war by military operations, including all requisitions made in the enemy's country.).

Now what are your examples for clauses as Article 231 of ToV not being rare ?

Let's start with the text o the Article 231 of the ToV most of the time associated with/equated to the "War Guilt" as the 'template' we might assess the other treaties against and as a 'reminder' what we are talking about:
The Allied and Associated Governments affirm and Germany accepts the responsibility of Germany and her allies for causing all the loss and damage to which the Allied and Associated Governments and their nationals have been subjected as a consequence of the war imposed upon them by the aggression of Germany and her allies.​


Now the Article 177 of the Treaty of Saint-Germain (interestingly making 'only' german Austria liable) :
The Allied and Associated Governments affirm and Austria accepts the responsibility of Austria and her Allies for causing the loss and damage to which the Allied and Associated Governments and their nationals have been subjected as a consequence of the war imposed upon them by the aggression of Austria-Hungary and her Allies.​

Almost - but just that - the sane as the according Article of the ToV. Wee but for a lawyer very ... interesting difference :
Germany is made responsible for ALL - what ever this might include after the arbitrary mindset of the victor - the loss and damage, Austria only for loss and damage as it seems a still undefined and therefore perhaps in its scope still negotiable entity.


The according text Article 161 of the Treaty of Trianon regarding Hungary :
The Allied and Associated Governments affirm and Hungary accepts the responsibility of Hungary and her allies for causing the loss and damage to which the Allied and Associated Governments and their nationals have been subjected as a consequence of the war imposed upon them by the aggression of Austria-Hungary and her allies.​

Quite the same as for Austria. Also with the same 'exclusion' (of "all") as for Austria.
However, their 'moral' responsibility - aka felt/perceived "guilt" - is somewhat ... relativated as their forerunning stately body - Austria-Hungary - and its ally is blamed. They the hungarians are its unfortunate heirs only (as might be argued).


Lets's look into Article 121 of the Treaty of Neuilly-sue-Seine regarding Bulgaria :
Bulgaria recognises that, by joining in the war of aggression which Germany and Austria-Hungary waged against the Allied and Associated Powers, she has caused to the latter losses and sacrifices of all kinds, for which she ought to make complete reparation​

Here we are aquite some way away from the above. Bulgaria hasn't caused or forced anything upon the winners - Entente - but merely joined a war Germany and Austria-Hungary are responsible for. Unfortunatly the not-winning side of the conflict.
They are also explicitly made liable for "repair-ations" to the winners losses by their joining - aka only the theatres they were engaged with each other.


Last but not least the Treaty of Sevres and its Article 231 (interestingly same number as in the ToV) :
Turkey recognises that by joining in the war of aggression which Germany and Austria-Hungary waged against the Allied Powers she has caused to the latter losses and sacrifices of all kinds for which she ought to make complete reparation​

Same as to Bulgaria above : not "guilty" only liable to the losses they actually caused. ... with room for negotiation as not defined as in the ToV ("all").


These ARE esp. regarding diplomatical legalism considerable differences.
Considering Germany burned half of Northern France and Belgium out of spite, and is this responsible for the supermajority of the damages to which the Allies were submitted...
 
Considering Germany burned half of Northern France and Belgium out of spite, and is this responsible for the supermajority of the damages to which the Allies were submitted...
Maybe I get a more ... intellectual answer and less general anti-german ranting if I put it somewhat ... more plain :

YOU argued that clause as article 231 of the ToV
...wasn't rare,...
And after having shown were the by you named "variations" I still ask you to deliver examples.
 
However, despite what some seem to think the ... 'germans' (whole people as it seems) deserved and therefore should have (still have) to shut-up or that some seem to render the article 231 of ToV a
... a pure legal formality to justify the payment of reparations, ...
not worth 'ranting' about ... there actually was a very real, historically recorded, considerable public and political upheaval (not only) in Germany about this "war guilt clause". The outrage embraced monarchists, socialists,soldiers, officers, workers, intellectuals, farmers, civil servants, unioners, all of Germany, each and everybody.
It was not caused by the prospect to have to
"... accept(s) the responsibility ... for causing ... loss and damage ..."​
and pay for collaterals in general (might have been different had the fantastic numbers the Entente demanded (Conference of Boulogne 1920 : 269 Billion Goldmarks) been known already in 1919). They offered them already in advance before any military action to Belgium. Though ofc they counted on 'refinancing' it with indemnities extracted from its beaten enemies.
To some (possibly lesser) degree the lil word "...all..." had some part in increasing the outrage as I tried to hint at already as - if in doubt - it might have included each and every expenditure by the 'winners' during the war even if no german might have been involved in causing some costs.

But what essentially caused all the outraged was the part :
"...have been subjected as a consequence of the war imposed upon them by the aggression of Germany and her allies."​
This was what made Germany and in the perception of the time Germany alone - as intended by i.e. Clemenceau and many other esp. french - responsible for the outbreak of the war at all as if non of the others/Entente had no part at all in the events leading to the outbraek of the war. ... apart from also making Germany responsible for the involvement of every participant ending up on the 'winners side' like Italy or Romania which never have been attacked or 'forced' to whatever by the CP.
 
And they just have to pick the area that has no Flemmings, eh ?
I honestly think them revising idea of a greater Netherlands is not out of the question. After the Napoleonic wars that’s what they did with Netherlands to keep a stronger buffer against France. I could see someone pitching that idea.

I think Germany might try to directly take more out west but like you mentioned many francophones and non Germans are going to be pissed and likely make a lot of trouble over it.

Netherlands was neutral but very German leaning. One of main reasons it did not join is because they fear Brits too much(they know they would lose Indonesia and all its colonies to them). Flemings would not be opposed to joining Netherlands. Many could be for it. The more francophone additions would cause some trouble especially tiny border bits of France they give them(basically a border that gives Dutch more access to English Channel while lowering French access to it. So no Dunkirk if a second war happens because Dutch control that and Germans can not storm France even faster. Less points of entrance for British through their entente members or allies). I think Germany could get Netherlands onboard with this through negotiation especially if they are clear victors and control mainland Europe and preferably held out in most colonies.

Germany doesn’t need to expand west. They don’t even need as many puppets as the East. Bismarck was smart about trying to diplomatically isolate France especially on mainland Europe. Germany victory and without Wilson idealism after war imperialist do see a boost in legitimacy and credit. Still a lot of pissed off people after the war but I’ll argue post war Germany who wins is more stable then otl France after war.

This means they could convince more of minor powers of western to join CP officially but screwing over defeated French. If Italy stayed out of it or join CP unlike otl I would not be surprised if Germany gave them everything East of Rhône river and Corsica. In colonies give French Djibouti, Tunis, and maybe Chad.

The Brits likely do lose anything. Germany can’t even do much against that navy even after Paris falls. The Brits likely are trying to save face in defeat in anyway it can unlike Germany in otl could actually be successful in this by winning overseas or against ottomans. This is not going to be one sided treaty like otl if Germany wins at least for Brits. France and Russians this won’t be the case.

Serbia going to get permanently occupied by Austrians/Hungarians as puppet. They likely labeled one regime as a terrorist like state which they do have a very legitimate claim internationally backing that. Serbia going to get shit on completely by the CP in very one possible. Russians and France the Germans goal is to make them a non threat to them anymore.

If Germany wins minor powers in Western Europe will feel less inclined to care about pissing off brits or ententes because the CP is now they top power in region. Portugal still likely British leaning for trade reasons. But Netherlands, Spain, and Italy if they did not join entente could be CP members and given French lands.

This makes France a non threat to Germany. Even if Netherlands stay neutral in a second war against them they might let Germans military have military access and not French. Also even if they don’t modernizing Kaiserreich might still be able to blitz through French lines later on but this France is even weaker then otl while this Germany is much stronger then otl.

If Italy is given Rhône that river is defensive position and this would help make their nationalist elements be content and very pro German especially if Corsica and some colonies are added into that. Spain just gets Mauritania and some minor border lands from France. I could see Germany just giving stuff away from France to weaken them. This mostly involves places they themselves can’t really take directly or control or even don’t want. This is just to weaken France and hopefully use this to gain some new allies in process. They need allies. WW1 would still show need of that.
 
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