W.I. The Boubons are wiped out during Wars of Religion

[Prince de Pringondani]

The house of Bourbon was the heir presumtive when the house of Valois Orleans Angloueme would create no male heirs.
What would happen if during the French Wars of Religion the male Bourbons (catholic or protestant)
would die? (By murder disease or beaten on the battlefield)
Which Noble House would inherit the french Crown.the only surviving Capeting house were the lCourtenay's with no influence or power could they claim the Royal Power according Salic Law?

PS all the Bourbon lines are wiped out including Conde Montpensier Roche dit Yonne and so on

 

[da Racontor]

If you want to go legalistic, then yes Courtenay would be the new royal house, and they probably would have gotten some support just because of that. It is just a question of do they get the right people to support them. In the case of a full house Capet die off, or everyone just ignores the Courtenays, the crown is technically up for election similar to how Hugh Capet got the crown in the first place. The nobility choosing to follow either of these courses of action is an entirely different matter though.

 

[Cornelis]

The house of Bourbon was the heir presumtive when the house of Valois Orleans Angloueme would create no male heirs.
What would happen if during the French Wars of Religion the male Bourbons (catholic or protestant)
would die? (By murder disease or beaten on the battlefield)
Which Noble House would inherit the french Crown.the only surviving Capeting house were the lCourtenay's with no influence or power could they claim the Royal Power according Salic Law?

PS all the Bourbon lines are wiped out including Conde Montpensier Roche dit Yonne and so on

In 1662 Louis XIV signed the Treaty of Montmartre, acknowledging the House of Lorraine as successors to the House of Bourbon, bypassing the Courtenay. Already in the 16th c., the Lorraine made a great fuss about their alleged Karling connections, provider of a remote claim on the french throne. However, given the circumstances of the Wars of Religion, it is very unlikely that either the Lorraine (with their Karling claims) or the Courtenay could peacefully take the throne. The Lorraine of Guise were the leaders of the ultra-catholic party while many Courtenay were linked to the Protestant party. The Chief of the Courtenay (Gaspard de Courtenay, Lord of Bleneau 1495-1561) was not unknown to the last Valois, as he had been their tutor. But it was a subordinate post in the court and he was never treated as a prince of the blood. OTL, Henri IV never recognized his sons at a time (1599) where the entire house of Bourbon had only one prince under thirty and two more under forty. The Guise had the power of the Spanish behind them ; but that could make them appear as "foreigners".

IMO, the most probable outcome of a total extinction of both the Valois and the Bourbon houses would be a female-line succession, probably the "Spanish Infanta", Isabella (1566-1633), granddaughter to Henri II, with a carefully chosen husband (maybe the Duke of Nemours, a Savoy prince, to counter the Lorraine influence).

 

[VVD0D95]

In 1662 Louis XIV signed the Treaty of Montmartre, acknowledging the House of Lorraine as successors to the House of Bourbon, bypassing the Courtenay. Already in the 16th c., the Lorraine made a great fuss about their alleged Karling connections, provider of a remote claim on the french throne. However, given the circumstances of the Wars of Religion, it is very unlikely that either the Lorraine (with their Karling claims) or the Courtenay could peacefully take the throne. The Lorraine of Guise were the leaders of the ultra-catholic party while many Courtenay were linked to the Protestant party. The Chief of the Courtenay (Gaspard de Courtenay, Lord of Bleneau 1495-1561) was not unknown to the last Valois, as he had been their tutor. But it was a subordinate post in the court and he was never treated as a prince of the blood. OTL, Henri IV never recognized his sons at a time (1599) where the entire house of Bourbon had only one prince under thirty and two more under forty. The Guise had the power of the Spanish behind them ; but that could make them appear as "foreigners".

IMO, the most probable outcome of a total extinction of both the Valois and the Bourbon houses would be a female-line succession, probably the "Spanish Infanta", Isabella (1566-1633), granddaughter to Henri II, with a carefully chosen husband (maybe the Duke of Nemours, a Savoy prince, to counter the Lorraine influence).

Would that not risk their entire succession precedent though? Given the hundred years war etc?

 

[Cornelis]

Would that not risk their entire succession precedent though? Given the hundred years war etc?

Given that no one ever thought to the Courtenay, including at the dynasty's dire times, I am thinking a female line succession (the OTL favorite of the Spanish and Catholic League) is likely. But, sure, an elective solution is possible ; I hardly find practical plans for this one, though. In the 18th c., some daydreaming by Saint-Simon : he never thought of the Courtenay, but proposed the election of the first lay Peer of the Realm, the Duke of Uzes, in the event of the extinctions of both the royal and the Orleans lines.

 

[VVD0D95]

Given that no one ever thought to the Courtenay, including at the dynasty's dire times, I am thinking a female line succession (the OTL favorite of the Spanish and Catholic League) is likely. But, sure, an elective solution is possible ; I hardly find practical plans for this one, though. In the 18th c., some daydreaming by Saint-Simon : he never thought of the Courtenay, but proposed the election of the first lay Peer of the Realm, the Duke of Uzes, in the event of the extinctions of both the royal and the Orleans lines.

Hmm interesting, so likely the Habsburgs take France, but through a different family name?

 

[Cornelis]

Hmm interesting, so likely the Habsburgs take France, but through a different family name?

Or the Lorraine, via a Habsburg infanta. Can't see the French accepting Isabella marrying an Austrian Habsburg. It could turn out well : Isabella gets the Spanish Netherlands as part of their inheritance and she marries the Duke of Lorraine or his heir. France finds itself in its 18th c. situation : widely expanded and closely allied to Spain. But, after a generation or two, the Lorraine-France will have ambitions of their own.

 

[VVD0D95]

So house of Lorraine rulings franxe? What would become of the house of guise?

 

[Ciniad]

So house of Lorraine rulings franxe? What would become of the house of guise?

Maybe they install semi-salic inheritance laws and the House of Guise became the Backup line the Prince of Conde to the Lorraine King.

 

[Prince de Pringondani]

What if the Courtenay were recognized by the great Noble families the Etats general and the parliament of Paris?
Could there develop some kind of french shogunate with a powerless king and some powerfull Noble families (Montmorency.Harcourt,Rohan, Luxembourg,Savoye)with the real power?

 

[Cornelis]

What if the Courtenay were recognized by the great Noble families the Etats general and the parliament of Paris?
Could there develop some kind of french shogunate with a powerless king and some powerfull Noble families (Montmorency.Harcourt,Rohan, Luxembourg,Savoye)with the real power?

The interests of the Parliament differ from the Grandees', and the States General are likely to be divided. As to the great houses, the Rohan and La Tremoille are protestants, the Montmorency, Lorraine and Savoy are catholics, as are d'Epernon and Joyeuse. No way they ever agree on a shared power. The more unifying solution is a female-line succession, because it satisfies both the Catholic League (spanish infanta) and the Politics (non-contested royal authority) while only the Protestants are supporting the Courtenay.

That being said, if Henri III worked hard to ennoble his Courtenay cousins with titles, lands, high-rank marriages (maybe with one of the last Bourbon), things could be different. Only none of this agree with his OTL personality.

 

[JonasResende]

Wasn't there a case (I think it was in '73) where the duc d'Orléans-Longueville was acknowledged as a "prince du sang" with "droits de succession"? How might that be viewed? I mean, Longueville is connected to the Condés as well as to the Gonzaga-Nevers (and I think the Guises somewhere along the way as well)...

 

[Cornelis]

Wasn't there a case (I think it was in '73) where the duc d'Orléans-Longueville was acknowledged as a "prince du sang" with "droits de succession"? How might that be viewed? I mean, Longueville is connected to the Condés as well as to the Gonzaga-Nevers (and I think the Guises somewhere along the way as well)...

The Pere Anselme wrote that Leonor d'Orléans, Duke of Longueville was in effect given the rank of Prince of the blood by letters patent of 1571, but he said nothing about the succession rights. Anyways, these letters were never registered in any Court, so they did not take effect. But, sure, a Longueville party could be formed as Longueville himself is a good compromise guy : born and raised Protestant (his mother is a Rohan), he became Catholic and fight alongside Anjou. He is the cousin to the Duke of Nemours, the husband of one Bourbon princess, the brother-in-law of Condé, his son Henri is married (1588) to a Gonzaga-Nevers. If he manages well, he might rally the Politics in spite of his very thin legitimacy. Maybe a compromise brokered by Henri III in which Henri de Longueville marry infanta Isabella, fusing the two legitimacies (legitimate female-line and illegitimate male-line) into one. Longueville had four daughters, meaning he could marry them in some families, strengthening his links with the Catholic League leaders.