Vinland Found?

The POD is that the Mongols conquer Europe including England, Ireland, and Scandinavia and only Iceland is left because it's too poor. They are raided for slaves (as has happened in OTL) because the Mongol invasion let in the Plague and they needed to rebuild the population of Europe.
Say, 80% of the population dies in the plague and secondary kill, leaving maybe ten thousand or so. The surviving Icelanders move to Greenland and overcrowding soon sends them further on to Vinland. They explore further down the coast and find areas that are better than Greenland and the trading posts/colonies hopscotch each other down the coast to Nantucket and other small islands that weren't permanently inhabited by natives.
The Vikings take the easy way of just trading along the coast all the way down to Argentina. The natives are always fighting with their neighbors over hunting grounds. The Vikings trade iron as their entry and then different crops up from cold areas to warm areas.
The Viking iron works are in Labrador and Newfoundland where there aren't many natives, but most of the population is farther south. Eventually they find Bermuda and that's as close to a center of their culture as they get. After a few hundred years they have moved potato crops to North America and set off a population boom. They brought wheat and barley, peas and lentils, radishes, onions, carrots, and turnips, and possibly some orchard crops like apples, plums, cherries, apricots, pears, European grape varietals, and maybe oranges if they got some seeds in trade from the Europeans before they finally moved out of range and cut off communications.
And of course they have chickens, cows, sheep, horses, bees, and maybe goats. Bees are important for pollinating lots of European crops like apples. They used a lot of dairy in Greenland before the little ice age. I don't know if they had bees there.
The metal trade would have been gold, silver, copper (native and ore), various stone and wood products, some shell and fur products, and of course the important iron products for weapons and tools.
 
Well I just did some numbers, and assuming even a small natural population gowth ( 1.5 net new people a year per hundred ) with no native admixtures, by the year 1500 there would be a population of over 7 million.
 
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Redbeard

Banned
Norman said:
Well I just did some numbers, and assuming even a small natural population gowth ( 1.5 net new people a year per hundred ) with no native admixtures, by the year 1500 there would be a population of over 7 million.

How many blondes would that be?

Regards :D

Steffen Redbeard
 
Redbeard said:
How many blondes would that be?

Regards :D

Steffen Redbeard

If we assume that about 20% are blond, and 50% women and 25% women between 15 and 45, you get about 192 thousand scandanavian blondes.
 
Well, originally I thought of the colony being part pagan, part Christian, leading to strife and lack of unity and coordination, and thus making them suriving and unsuccessful. However, religious refugees who don't want to return to Europe is more plausible than a catastrophe causing everyone to develop a "The Village" mentality. I suppose the Vinland colony would be forgotten by the Europeans on purpose.

Maybe there will be two major colony groups- one of pagans, and one of Christians who came from the original, OTL colonists.

I still want to constrain their population centers around a region from Newfoundland to the St. Lawrence River, however. Also, I want to keep Europe's history on track, butterfly-free, just for interest.

What would the Spanish react to finding a huge Euro colony of pagans? What about the English?
 
I do not think that pure norse blood would survive too much.
It was the traditional viking way that women were expected to die in child birth- no big deal if they do, you'll just get another wife. You would see a few norse being born but then the vikings would run out of women from home and have to go and get some natives.
Pretty quickly the amount of half Americans would take over the amount of full norse and as time goes by they would get more and more American with a half breed's kids being quarter breed then one eigth breed...Also I hear the blond haired gene is recessive (though the blue eyed one isn't IIRC).
So assuming a few thousand vikings getting to north america doesn't cause things to go different in Europe Cabot will show up to find advanced natives some of which have blue eyes and maybe some blond hair here and there, I'd imagine though the population of the vikings wouldn't be enough to keep diseases going permanently so they would be wiped out pretty quick in the same way as the aztecs.
 

Hendryk

Banned
I agree with what NapoleonXIV said further up: the three big factors of a lasting Norse settlement on the American continent will be:
1. Germs. With protracted contact the native Americans will start catching the Old World diseases what wiped out many of them after the Spanish conquest in OTL. This means that by the 15th-16th centuries, the descendants of the survivors will no longer be sensitive to Spanish-borne germs, and the Conquistadors will have a much harder time in South and Central America.
2. Horses. In OTL horses were introduced by the Spanish, and within 250-odd years had spread to the whole continent. If you have horses introduced in America as early as the 11th century, they'll be all around by the 13th, which means the Aztecs and the Incas will have a cavalry at their disposal to face off the Europeans. Plus, horses beat llamas as beasts of burden, and this may make enough of a difference in terms of economic surplus for a qualitative leap to take place, perhaps to a pre-industrial level of development, especially if you add--
3. Iron. Give both the Plains Indians and the sedentary Aztecs and Incas iron to make weapons with, and they'll be a far tougher nut to crack.
So, by the time of Columbus there might well be pre-industrial empires in Central and South America. Instead of all-out conquest, the best the Europeans could hope for would be East Indies-type colonization.
 
Hendryk said:
1. Germs. With protracted contact the native Americans will start catching the Old World diseases what wiped out many of them after the Spanish conquest in OTL. This means that by the 15th-16th centuries, the descendants of the survivors will no longer be sensitive to Spanish-borne germs, and the Conquistadors will have a much harder time in South and Central America.
Well, the diseases could still hit them hard, as they might burn themselves out the first time around, resulting in a few hundred years w/o the plagues, ruining their immunity.

Put another way: How long have we been without smallpox? And how immune are we?
 
The diseases wouldn't give them immunity, they would kill a lot then die off. America doesn't have the population density to keep them going as a minor disease especially after a lot have been killed by the diseases.
I don't think vikings had horses at all. The greenlanders definatly didn't.
 
Leej said:
The diseases wouldn't give them immunity, they would kill a lot then die off. America doesn't have the population density to keep them going as a minor disease especially after a lot have been killed by the diseases.
I don't think vikings had horses at all. The greenlanders definatly didn't.

Vikings used ponies.
 

monkey

Banned
The main reason why Eurasia has many more deseases than America, as well as size is all the domestic animals. If the vikings introduce these animals to american agriculture then the indians will gain a certain amount of resistance to the diseases that come from these animals.

Some have sugeted that these vikings might be pagan but it is my understanding that by the midle of the 11th century the Church had strong grip on the people of greenland. Although after 4 centuries of isolation in a small comunitee it might change a little.

If we look at OTL things like ironwork can take a while to spread across continents. Iron first apears with the hitites about 1000bc but dose not turn up in britain til around 600 bc or in Korea til about 500 ad (these dates are from memory so corect me if I'm wrong?). Although if these vikings keep their ship wrights and sea faring tradition and trade with the civilisations to the south this could be speeded up.

The starter of this thread thread has been thinking up ways to keep this settlement isolated from europe. But if manage to create a viable and sustainable comunitee on the american mainland you may not need another pod as the reason why the greenlanders bother sailing all the way across the stormy North Atlantic was to get the timber that did not exist in greenland, but this is in plentiful suply in america. The only other motive to maintain contact would come from the church but purhaps you could have some power hungry Bishop establish himself as the supreme authority forbiding contact with Europe, and maby even "acidentaly" destroying all books and bibles in somthing like a fire or shipwreck so that no one can contradict what he says!
 
The Greenlanders didn't have horses, but they were common enough in Scandinavia... I think you'd have to have the settlers come not just from Greenland, but from the old countries as well... Greenland didn't have the surplus population to colonize over there.
I'm not sure just how the Vinlanders get so isolated... somehow, you have to rob them of their boats. Trade is a major part of all the norse nations, and the Vinlanders are going to have to trade with Europe to get a lot of the things they need.
Christianity was taking over the Viking world at the time the Leif Erikson voyages took place. The sagas note that Christianity came to Greenland; a small church was built there, which was excavated by archeologists later. The sagas say that Erik the Red's wife was so taken by Christianity that she moved out of Erik's house to become a devotee of the church, which rather pissed him off :)
The sagas all note that few women went on the Vinland voyages... only about a dozen or so on the big colonizing expedition of Thorfinn, and only 6 on the last one launched by Freydis (who killed the other 5.. not a nice girl). The Norsemen would have to intermarry with the natives if they wanted to keep the colony going....
 
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