Venusian Space Program

As promised here is a Chelomei based proposal. The TVS Vehicle is based on work done for the LK-700. The general thing to remember is that by and large the total delta-vee requirement for a Venus flyby is a little less than a Moon-landing and return mission.
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Chelomei Design Bureau Proposal 14985

Summary Section

Introduction
This proposal is to allow the Soviet Union to launch a 2 man space craft to flyby Venus during the March 1972 launch window, and returning 1 year later. The purposes of the mission are:

A) Ascertain the in-habitability of Venus
B) Nature of Venusian lifeforms.
C) Engineering test of spacecraft and life support systems for long duration travel to and from Venus.
D) Development of a heavy life launch vehicle with a flexible configuration to support a variety of mission profiles.

To implement these purposes the following design is proposed

Authorization for the UR-700 in the 11D54 configuration is granted. This would approve the the following.

A high energy stage of 9 x RD-270 / 11D54 Lox/LH2 engines. This will be configured with a inner core of 3 RD-270 engines and a outer core of 6 RD-270 engines. At launch all nine engines will be ignited. The six outer engines will be dropped midway during the ascent and the ascent will be continued on the three inner-engines until burnout. The internal plumbing will be arranged to allow fuel from the six outer tanks to be fed into the three internal tanks. When the six outer tanks of the first stage is spend and ejected this will allow the 2nd stage to continue the burn with full tanks.

After burnout of the second stage the third stage will take over. This will be modified version of the first stage of the UR-500k (Proton-K) with six RD-253 engines. This will insert the TVS Vehicle into Orbit and position it for trans-Venus orbit.

The TVS Vehicle will consist of

1 Block V VA Reentry Capsule
1 Almaz-derived long term habitation module
1 Block 11 Midcourse maneuver stage
1 Block 1 Trans Venus Injection Stage

The TVS Vehicle will launch without a crew. To transfer the crew a new variant Soyuz will be develop to allow for docking and transfer of two crew. The Soyuz will then return with one crew.

Mission Profile
The TVS Vehicle will launch one week prior to the launch windows. Once mission control is satisfied with the functioning of the vehicle, the Soyuz containing the crew will be then be launch. The Soyuz will dock with the TVS Vehicle, transfer the TVS crew, and then return.

The TVS Vehicle will then proceed with the checkout procedure and when the launch window opens use the Tran-Venus Injection stage to begin the mission. The TVS Vehicle will then jettison the TVI stage and while coasting to Venus use the mid-course maneuver stage as needed.

If an abort situation is encountered during the TVI burn, the mid-course maneuver stage can be used to maneuver the TVS Vehicle to allow a re-entry via the VA capsule.

When a month away from Venus intercept, the TVS vehicle will launch the mission probes. During the inbound coast phase the crew will perform a variety of solar and astronomical experiment to take advantage of the close proximity to the sun.

During the Venus flyby, the crew will actively monitor the mission probes and operate other instrument and experiments. There is a three hour window in which the crew can assume active control of at least one of the planned mission probes destined to land in the atmosphere.

The outbound leg of the mission will take the longest with the last three months will be coasting beyond the radius of Earth' orbit around the sun. The crew will be undertaking a series of observations and experiment to explore this environment.

At the end of the year-long mission, the crew will enter the VA re-entry capsule and separate from the TVS vehicle. The projected landing point will be in the USSR. Provision will be made for water landing in the Indian Ocean if needed.

With proper funding it is expected that we can deliver the following:

January 1971 the first UR-700
May 1971, the 2nd UR-700
Sept 1971, the 3rd UR-700

Then one every 3 month afterwards.

With proper funding we could deliver the first long term habitation Almaz in
July 1970. The second one in December 1970, and the third one in April 1970, with additional Almaz every four months afterwards.

With proper funding we could deliver the first two TVS vehicles by March 1971 and the next two by December 1971

Development flights.
In addition to UR-700 development flights we project the following.
1x Proton- unmanned Almaz flight to test long term habitation module
1x Proton - Almaz with docking Soyuz to test long term habitation module for one month.
1x Proton - Almaz with docking Soyuz to test long term habitation module for three months.
1x UR700 - unmanned TVS Vehicle to be launched in extreme high earth orbit.
1x UR700 - TVS Vehicle with Soyuz docking to be launched in extreme high earth orbit with one year duration test. To be started no later than Janurary 1971.
 
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That Sounds like a good idea, after i flesh out my ideas a little more i might do just that :)

Apologies for not responding to this thread in detail yet - I will soon, and there's a lot of extremely useful ideas in here - but if you'd like to write this up as a competing proposal to the one which Robert Conley has lodged, that would be very welcome. I could incorporate both of them into the TL proper and then make a decision about which is best. :D
 
I'd like to say thanks to everyone (and especially robertsconley) for your input into this thread. It's given me a lot of information which I've started to include when writing upcoming posts about how spaceflight and timing are working in the habitable Venus thread.

The main points I'm still considering but haven't reached a decision on are:

- N-1 or UR-700 series being the heavy rocket which the Soviets end up using? I'm working on the assumption that they get one or the other to succeed, but haven't decided which yet - there's been informed discussion by proponents of each.

- The return from landing on Venus will be either a working two-stage design, or some kind of space shuttle-equivalent reuseable. Much depends on how quickly the two superpowers can work out the bugs in such systems.

- Fuel type on Venus: there's arguments for both hydrolox and methane-oxygen. I don't know enough about the pros and cons of each to decide, so I'm leaving this one open for now.
 
OBK-1's Proposal(a little late in the posting )

Here's my go at it.
Notes, mission proposed in 1963, so some things will likely change in the coming years, assumes N-1 payload of 75 tonnes to LEO, if this is raised than the mission gets much more margin capability, it's currently cutting it a little tight in a couple of areas.

N-11 rocket is an N-1 without the 1st stage, slightly more capable than Proton/UR-500

Proposal loosely based on the TMK-1 craft, designed/studied shortly before the Mariner 2 results.

In many ways robertsconley's proposal is superior, being launched from a heavier slightly more modern rocket design helps with that. I still think that the N-1 rocket had the better chance of getting an OK from the politburo though.
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OKB-1 - Feb 1963

Proposal for a manned venus flyby craft launched on the N-1



--Summary--

Proposal: A manned spacecraft to flyby Venus and return the cosmonauts safely to earth approximately 1 year later.

Objectives:


  • Direct observations of Venus with cosmonauts, determine precise surface conditions and potential habitability.
  • Search for signs of life on Venus.
  • Demonstration of technologies to enable further planetary exploration.
  • Perform long duration deep space science.

To fulfil these objectives the following is presented, it is expected that the mission presented can be ready for the 1972 launch window assuming go ahead is given soon.

Requirements:
Development of the N-1 heavy lift rocket, including Block S 11D57 powered hydrogen/oxygen 4th stage.
Development of a Soyuz crew vehicle specifically designed for high velocity re-entry.

Recommended developments:
Development of Venerakhod teleoperated roving vehicle and associated parachute landing platform. if approved, this vehicle would be designed to operate in conjunction with the crewed mission, and would be piloted from onboard the TVK. this rover would be launched on a slower trajectory and arrive at Venus shortly before the crewed flyby.

Launch breakdown:

1 N-1 Launch:Block S stage, mass 54 tonnes + TVK craft, mass 20.5 tonnes.
1 R-7/Soyuz Launch:Soyuz crew vehicle: mass 6 tonnes.
-Optional-
1 R-7/Molniya Launch:Venerakhod roving vehicle.

TVK breakdown:
TVK craft would include a telescope for long and short range observation.
multiple impactor/lander probes for sampling different locations on Venus.

Mission profile:
The first launch window for which the TVK craft would be fully tested and ready, opens in March 1972.

The TVK on top of the Block S stage would be launched into LEO at the beginning of the 1 month launch window, while in orbit all possible spacecraft systems would be checked out from the ground. Assuming acceptable results are received, 24 hour after TVK launch a 3 person Soyuz spacecraft would be launched to rendezvous and dock with the complex.

After the crew completes the final checks on the craft, ground control gives the command for the Block S to initiate the TVI burn. The TVK then separates from block S and continues the 5 month cruise to Venus. The spacecraft uses its onboard propulsion system for any attitude control and midcourse maneuvers.

A few days before the Venus encounter the cosmonauts release the scientific lander/penetrator probes. These probes would enter and land just after the crew reach periapse, data would be relayed straight back to the crew. If the remote piloted ‘venerakhod’ rover is included, then the crew would have many days in which to teleoperate the rover on the surface with negligible light-speed delay, after this teleoperation would incur greater and greater time lag. The TVK return journey takes 8 months and brings the crew out on a long arc with a maximum distance of 1.2 AU from the sun.

A few days before reaching Earth the crew would transfer into the Soyuz, and use its engines to fine tune their re-entry angle to guarantee a safe landing. Landing site selection would occur weeks before re-entry, and would likely be in the kazakh steppe, with the Indian ocean as a contingency backup site.

The TVK would harmlessly fly past Earth and continue on to enter Solar orbit.

Necessary Preparatory Simulations/Flights:
Ground simulations and training would begin in the 1966-7 time frame. this would test the endurance of cosmonauts in long duration(1 year) spaceflight on the safety of the ground, and enable qualification of long term life support equipment.

June 1970 - launch to LEO of a functional prototype TVK on the N-11 or UR-500 .

March 1971 - A demonstrator of the whole system would be launched. It would be placed into a high elliptical Earth orbit and function both as a full system test for the mission, and a functioning research space station. A high elliptical orbit is chosen as it spends most of the time at high altitudes with a similar environment to interplanetary space. While a high altitude circular orbit would be preferable for simulating the deep space environment, the elliptical orbit allows crew to use a Soyuz with a standard propulsion module to return to Earth.

Future Development Possibilities:
After 1 or more successful Flyby missions, the TVK design could be easily modified to function as the main component of an interplanetary transfer craft or as an Venus orbiting research station. The basic design would also function well as an Earth orbit space station, either on it’s own, or as part of a modular complex.
 
- N-1 or UR-700 series being the heavy rocket which the Soviets end up using? I'm working on the assumption that they get one or the other to succeed, but haven't decided which yet - there's been informed discussion by proponents of each.
I have two main points against UR-700. The first is propellant toxicity. Given its hypergolic fuel and oxidizer, if a UR-700 failed it'd contaminate the crash site for miles around. Second, and exacerbating the first, is the fact that there's serious issues with engine redundancy on the vehicle. As far as I can tell, losing any single first-stage engine requires shutting down two more engines to maintain balanced thrust--an instant reduction in thrust of 50%. Unless the three second stage tanks are routed through a common propellant manifold before they reach the engines, then the second stage entirely lacks engine redundancy at all. This tends to make a loss of vehicle even more likely than for an N-1, especially given that the new RD-270 engines are likely to have some issues being proven. I'd say the better approach is to work the bugs out of the N-1 and fly that.

- The return from landing on Venus will be either a working two-stage design, or some kind of space shuttle-equivalent reusable. Much depends on how quickly the two superpowers can work out the bugs in such systems.
Working the bugs out of single-stage reusable on Earth is going to be hard enough, but figuring out how to do that and also how to service it in-situ is going to be seriously challenging. Since that means you're looking at expendable one way or the other, I'd then go two-stage just for the lower dry weight.

- Fuel type on Venus: there's arguments for both hydrolox and methane-oxygen. I don't know enough about the pros and cons of each to decide, so I'm leaving this one open for now.
You're looking at insulating to below -180 C either way, so I'm not sure how much the extra 70 C you have to drop lower to get to hydrogen matters for storage. Hydrolox has the benefit of being easily made from a readily available resource on Earthlike planets (water electrolysis), while methane requires running more complex reactions. OTOH, given the issues of insulating to LOX storage temperatures in an environment that's thick enough to breath (and thus thick enough to convect easily), either prop choice is a massive pain.
 
Venus two-stage reusable launcher

I have two main points against UR-700. The first is propellant toxicity. Given its hypergolic fuel and oxidizer, if a UR-700 failed it'd contaminate the crash site for miles around.
You know my feelings on that matter, e!

If Jared and others haven't caught my rants on other space threads--I'm with e of pi on this, only more fanatically. I hate, hate, hate hypergol launchers.

But I have to admit that done right, they tend to be cost-effective. Though in both the cases of Proton and the long series of Titans between the first and the latter-day ones (which have switched back to ker-lox) the apparent economy of their operation has a lot to do with a very high rate of procurement and use as military missiles and launchers. I don't know if Proton had the long service use as a missile that Titan II did, but if not it did become a workhorse Soviet design with such extensive use that nowadays it remains a cheap system.

But--it had a long shakedown period of many years before it became reliable.

Chelomei was overconfident. A more complex evolution of Proton, his design, would presumably also require a long shakedown period. With many of the failures involving release of the entire load of toxic, corrosive glop.

Also--the tribal peoples of Kazakhstan nowadays can demonstrate they suffer from medical issues due to being downrange of Soviet and modern Russian launch sites. These are not from Nedelin-incident type launch pad explosions but from the residues of successful launches. UR-700s on top of Proton launches will compound this problem. And it is an indication of just how toxic a release of all that unburned propellant would be.

I really really hope that massive hypergolic launchers are avoided, and that the American programs move away from Titan hypergolic launchers sooner than OTL. As SirKeplan mentions, the N-1 program was also to include development of the N-2 (sometimes spelled N-11) that would omit the 24-engined first stage to leave a launcher with the same capabilities as Proton, so the hypergolic launchers could be bypassed completely.

Or course the Soviet rulers would be less moved by many of my arguments. But note that by the basic TL guideline of "no butterflies until a probe gets a close look at Venus," the Nedelin catastrophe has happened here on schedule in 1960; not only is its horrid aftermath vivid in Khrushchev's mind, he sent none other than Leonid Brezhnev to investigate; if the Politburo coup ousting Khruschev is also as OTL, the latter winds up as Soviet top boss--with personal memories of the devastated site.

Rocket failures are bad no matter what the fuels are; OTL I'm sure the sites of the crashed N-1 launch attempts were an ugly and expensive mess too. But not all propellants combine the many modes of deadliness hypergolics do.

In the context of my post, which is meant to focus on a suitable vehicle for moving people off of Venus's surface into low Venus orbit, hypergols also have the strike against them of being relatively complex substances to synthesize in situ. To be sure, below I briefly consider possibilities of synthesizing paraffin wax and hydrogen peroxide, or nitrates and attempting to acquire sulfur. I suppose it would be possible to ship reasonably compact chemical plant that could derive a pair of hypergolic propellent substances from ambient air and water; they are composed of nitrogen and hydrogen atoms after all, so a two-stage hypergol system analogous to a big Titan or Proton might be possible. And the stuff would store at "room temperature."

But tankage that can store "dragon's blood" fuels has to meet very meticulous standards; if we can ship suitable panels to build clean enough tanks to store launch-scale quantities of these substances we can probably just as well ship insulated panels for LOX and methane tanks. So I will not go farther down the hypergol route if it is all the same to everyone here.
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Working the bugs out of single-stage reusable on Earth is going to be hard enough, but figuring out how to do that and also how to service it in-situ is going to be seriously challenging. Since that means you're looking at expendable one way or the other, I'd then go two-stage just for the lower dry weight.
What about two-stage reusable? The premium on reusability is much higher for getting folks off of Venus than it is on Earth. On Earth it is an economic argument; will we save more money by using the same equipment many times, or by simplifying the construction and operation of that equipment and achieving economies of scale in production? On Venus, there is no way, not until many thousands if not tens of thousands of humans have permanently settled there and taken up prospecting, mining, ore refining, transcontinental scale shipping, and diverse forms of industrial production, to produce expendable components. Each expendable item must be shipped in from Earth--anyway Earth space, if we wait a long time (say, up to present day times) there might be a rudimentary production industry on the Moon or in LEO or at Lagrange colonies or something. But still each item must enter Venus's atmosphere and be recovered before it can be attached to a launcher to put anything back up into Venus orbit.

If an item can survive Venus-escape-velocity atmospheric entry, either coming in very close to the launch site or with there being enough people and equipment on Venus to locate and haul back a wayward distant landing, only to be used on the ground once, why not design it to be recovered after merely orbital speed reentries, again and again and again? Each reuse saves an expensive shipment from Earth.

So, while in the end it is still a question of economics, the argument is much more strongly skewed in favor of reuse. It would become less so if a permanent population of human settlers were to grow up and become capable of making rockets in their spare time. But first, there has to be at least a plan for delivering launch vehicle components to the surface, in a way that a mere handful of first-wave explorers can hope to somehow manhandle together at a suitable launch site. (They surely would have to have some heavy machinery sent their way too, but of course such machines, once recovered and fueled, need only routine maintenance to be kept useful for decades).

So--I'm thinking we might have a two-stage vehicle vaguely like a two-stage recoverable version of e of pi's own Saturn 1-C from Eyes Turned Skyward. One, maybe two, derivatives of the F-1A engine on a delta-winged first stage. The F-1A is not designed to be reusable of course, nor is it designed to provide effective thrust in air more than twice the density of Earth's sea level atmosphere. Also kerosene is not likely to be readily available at the desired launch site. This is a proposal for early expeditions, either assuming a resolute refusal to consider my "one-way until decades hence" notion, or as a plan to fit within that program but with concrete assurance that the return will be offered eventually, so it cannot wait on lots of geologist-pioneers finding petroleum deposits, mining them, shipping the crude to the launch site and refining it into suitable rocket fuel. Given that methane can be produced in situ anywhere, and with alternate methods that might be a lot easier given biomatter to feed in, presumably the fuel is methane. F-1 is not designed for that either but I'd think the necessary modifications are straightforward.

Overall the engine will probably be significantly heavier than an F-1A. The answer to high surface air densities is probably higher chamber pressures, and I believe methane will burn hotter than kerosene, so the chamber has to be heavier. The methane pump will probably be heavier and require more power than a kerosene pump since methane is less dense. And we want everything to be very robust, so it doesn't break down after many firings. It all points to a heavier engine.

With methane for at least the first stage, this favors it for the second as well. The total gravitational requirement of delta-V to orbit on Venus is somewhat lower than from Earth, but this is offset by more atmospheric drag. Sticking with a vertical launch strategy, the first stage must bull through more air, and maximum aerodynamic pressure is going to be twice as high, meaning we need a strong structure for everything, including the upper stage riding on top.

To recover the first stage I think it could be a delta-wing structure, with relatively thick though supersonic-sharp-edged wing tanks holding the methane. The methane is around 1/5 or a bit more (insofar as we have to burn fuel-rich) of the mass of the propellant, but more like 1/3 the volume--still as the minority of volume, and being less than half as dense as LOX, it ought to go in the wings. Burnout and separation of stages would be pretty high in the atmosphere, going at somewhere between twice and three times the speed of sound--fast enough that there would be some significant heating, but this would be temporary, a matter of some tens of seconds headed up, and just a few minutes coming back down. With a delta wing capable of gliding at supersonic and subsonic speeds, I'd think gliding back to the launch site would be feasible. A suitably robust structure would not even require a runway; it could splash down in water, preferably fresh water as in a lake.

The upper stage might burn either hydrogen or methane, the former giving better performance and with engines such as the J-2S available off the shelf. But methane lies between hydrogen and kerosene, the latter already being good enough for a two-stage launcher, and since the first stage will outmass the second by quite a lot making the second run on methane would be a simple matter of making more of it, just 20 percent more or even less than that. Modifying the J-2S to burn methane instead of hydrogen should be easier than doing that for the F-1A, because if methane burns hotter than kerosene, it also ought to burn cooler than hydrogen; if it is harder to pump than kerosene it is much easier to pump than hydrogen. The pumping power demands on a methane-burning F-1 type engine are higher, but a J type using methane would have substantially lower power demands and a lighter fuel pump too. And there is no need to raise the chamber pressure if the first stage can get it high enough when first ignited. I gather the J-2A as designed OTL already had a remarkably long burning life expectancy and the more benign conditions methane affords should extend it considerably; even beefing it up to guarantee a longer lifetime still, its thrust-to-weight ought to stay in the same ballpark. Compared to the ETS Saturn 1-C second stage, the tankage is more compact due to methane's greater density compared to hydrogen.

So, I'm envisioning an upper stage that is a fairly compact lifting body, with a crew capsule on the top/front end. This capsule is designed to be separated in an emergency from the stage, and have a one-use ablative TPS on the bottom/back side that is normally protected from damage by being mated to the second stage tankage. Its front and one side are made of heavy reusable metal TPS. A small number of humans ride in tight conditions comparable to a Gemini capsule there. In case of a launch failure, there is a powerful methane/oxygen engine fed by a tank at high pressure mounted above to serve as a launch escape system that can pull this capsule away from an explosion; once ascent has proceeded far enough that this is not necessary the engine fires, still with the capsule attached firmly to its launch stage, at moderated lower thrust to usefully expend the emergency fuel and some seconds before its shut-down separates from the capsule, thus flying free; it falls to the surface with a transponder helping to locate it, and parachutes to the ground, to be recovered and refilled for a future flight.

(Reminder--there are all sorts of situations where an Earth launcher would use something expendable, such as solid fuel rockets for launch escape systems, where a Venus launcher must use something recoverable and reusable, because Venus, for the first generation or three, has no industrial infrastructure to make even moderately complex things. A solid rocket is very simple in concept but one needs an advanced chemical infrastructure to amass the diverse substances needed to make one, and then assemble it with reasonable quality control so it can work reliably. There are some interesting approaches that can simplify the work--for instance, much has been made of low-tech "candy rockets" and perhaps with suitable deposits or sources of sulfur, and synthesis of nitrates, and some greenhouses growing sugar cane or sugar beets or some such, candy solids can get some jobs done well enough. Maybe; that's already a pretty extensive infrastructure and I'd worry about quality control. Then there is the idea of a hybrid solid/liquid rocket--I'm excited by paraffin-wax/hydrogen peroxide approaches myself. If one can ship a plant to make methane on Venus, why not elaborate it to make more complex hydrocarbons suitable for paraffin? With a pressure-fed hydrogen peroxide feed, one can have variable thrust too, and cut off and restart a paraffin rocket at discretion, making it a suitable orbital maneuvering rocket--this, I gather, is something DreamChaser designers are pursuing, making a solid/liquid hybrid that can serve as OMS and also as emergency launch escape system. But it seems to me the simplest approach is to make a gas/gas very high pressure, very high thrust system--the fact that the high pressure gas containment must be pretty heavy does have the the silver lining that such a system would be very robust, hence realistic to recover even from velocities half or more orbital.

To be sure, one could have emergency escape solids built into the bottom of the capsule, and not use them except in emergencies--if an emergency requires their use the upper stage, and in many likely scenarios the lower one as well, is ruined anyway and future launches will use spares or wait on more shipments of new ones from Earth. Or the simplest system of all is to have no launch escape system and hope the dang reusable stages never fail.)

The bulk of the lifting body upper stage is tankage, shielded by metal TPS on its "bottom" side during reentry, with the mass of the engine installation counterbalancing the mass of the crew capsule at the front end. In normal operation, the combined second stage/crew capsule vehicle maneuvers on small residual reserves of methane and oxygen to rendezvous with a ship sent from Earth to low Venus orbit, or with a permanent space station derived from earlier, orbital missions. The Venus veteran crew that is going home transfers over and are replaced by new astronauts starting a tour of Venus surface exploration. (Supplies for the surface colony that might have been sent on this launch or parallel ones have already entered the atmosphere at high speeds, been braked by ablative one-use heat shields, and landed on Venus for the base people to go pick up). The new crew settle into their tiny capsule, retro-brake at the appropriate time, and the entire upper stage structure reenters as a lifting body spaceplane, guided to a splash landing on a lake near the base where it is towed to dock. The new crew step out onto Venus, the craft is hauled up onto a carrier trailer and hauled to the launch site nearby, where the first stage has already been brought.

In case of emergency on descent, as with TPS burn-through, the crew capsule can again blow free and reenter separately while the second stage burns up or falls to the ground in pieces. This is a bad thing to have happen; it means the loss of one stage and a cutback in surface to orbit capability until Earth can send another one. But the incoming crew probably survives, though someone has to go out into the bush to ransack the entry range for the stray capsule, which will probably have to be abandoned wherever it fell.

If such a three-component reusable package can be developed (or just two-component if we can do without the LES element) it can be launched from Earth, and the elements separately refueled in LEO to send themselves on to Venus. (Delta-V from LEO to transfer orbits that can intercept Venus is under 4000 m/sec, so even a first stage burdened down with an extra ablative shell should be able to push itself on to such speeds--if not, the upper one certainly can, and the lower can be boosted with strap-on solids to make up any deficit). The LES and the first stage would need temporary discardable ablative layers attached to survive aerobraking until they reach the speeds they are meant to operate at in the atmosphere. The second stage would be coming in with over 41 percent more velocity and thus over twice the energy it is meant to routinely endure on a reusable basis, so it too would either require extra discardable one-time shielding, again presumably ablative, or to enter in a skip manuever--the first encounter in the upper atmosphere meant to lower the craft below escape velocity and ideally down to low Venus orbital speed, then after it cools off from that deorbit and come down at the base site. Perhaps it could be done in three or more skips. My suspicion is that a TPS that can take orbital velocity can do the first skip as well; the speed is going to average 50 percent or more faster than the profile during entry, thus a given force would release 50 percent more heating power. But the velocity to be lost is less than half that of final entry, so a lower acceleration achieved by braking higher in the atmosphere would result in the same heat flux as during final entry, for a shorter time too. A lot depends on the details of how a particular thermal protection strategy works, and how accurately the incoming course can be tweaked to hit the correct layer of upper atmosphere initially.
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For true single-stage to orbit, I haven't seen many examples of designs that convince me they are going to work; the one that seems most realistic to me, as SSTOs go, is Skylon.

Having already written a very long post here, which I started a very long time ago, I will spin off discussion of Skylon or something like it for another post.
 
Dynamic structures in the long run

I think I'll start with some "other notions" first.

I'm obviously an enthusiast for the notion that a habitable Venus means a massive increase in manned space travel, mainly going from Earth to Venus, and that the order of magnitude greater difficulty in getting back to Earth from Venus might be sidestepped for some time, decades perhaps, by simply sending people one-way there--which would allow the first crewed missions to Venus to happen much sooner than any plausible pace of technical development would allow for return flights. With the latter notion we might see landing on Venus before 1980! But the poor sods who go down won't come home until the 1990s at earliest.

Given the assumption that early landings on Venus lead, not to a termination of missions (as might happen if Venus life proves too hostile to Terran to justify the effort, on the level of basic biology or the fun prospect of native Venerian intelligent life forms finding our invasion obnoxious and in some mix killing us or demanding we leave them alone) nor a slow-burner scientific sideshow (the most reasonable guess, I suppose) but a bandwagon of Venerian colonization (where the "product" the colonists send back to pay their freight is information, presumably valuable enough to pay a lot of freight), then over time a demand for space travel on a scale far beyond that sustained by OTL budgets will arise. In addition to Venus colonists, we can expect extensive development of orbital and Lunar industry, both to support the Venus initiative and also as "spin-off" industries in their own right.

To an extent we can expect prices for launch to orbit to come down due to high volume of demand leading to economies of scale coming into play. But for the sort of Venus Rush I'm imagining to happen, I'd think we'd start investing in more radical approaches than merely trying to make rocket launches cheaper.

I refer to non-rocket (or rocket-minimizing) approaches along the lines of Lofstrom Loops or other dynamic structures. These can be criticized on many grounds. I myself am a skeptic about the hands-down favorite version of science fiction, the geosynchronous "Beanstalk" type tower. I gather from some enthusiastic writing I see a lot of lately that perhaps the daunting problems of materials science that rendered the concept purely science fictional speculation a few decades ago might perhaps be on the verge of being solved, with advanced materials of various types. Even given the prospect of a realistic design for such a structure to be built today, though, I am leery of it. Basically I don't like the idea of a fixed structure running from Earth's surface to well beyond geosynch altitudes, because it stands in the way of free orbiting structures for one thing. For another, the slow ride of weeks through the Van Allen Belts to get to the orbital heights bugs me quite a lot. Finally if the damn thing breaks it poses a definite hazard to Earth. So I am not fond of it.

A Venerian Beanstalk is even more problematic, given Venus's 48 hour rotation period, and more intense radiation environment.

Now as I say there are several criticisms of the specific Lofstrom Loop concept, such as it may prove to be unstable in ways that we cannot control. (I'm obviously assuming that with experimentation and suitably advanced computer control, we can lick that problem). Another that does bother me is that, while I've seen schemes to vary the launch azimuth somewhat, I'm dubious about them and basically the system only allows for launch to a fixed azimuth, or anyway a narrow range of them. Whereas the only fixed azimuth orbit that could be accessed more than twice a day with this system would be equatorial--we'd have to set up the launcher on the equator (not a terrible problem) and launch material to a low equatorial orbit--more of a problem, because we don't generally want to be in an equatorial orbit. Generally we'd rather be in quite different orbits, and changing inclination by means of rockets is pretty costly. Whereas other dynamic structures that can change orbits have to pull at high multiples of a gravity in order to be on a scale a lot smaller than Earth's radius. A possible though clumsy solution would be to boost to very high orbital altitudes on a long elliptical orbit, change inclination there (where orbital speeds are much lower) and then circularize again when the damn thing comes down. Aside from wasted delta-V to achieve high altitudes, only to get rid of it again when coming down to the desired height, this involves a couple passages through the scenic Van Allen Belts I'd rather avoid.

So I've looked with some interest at yet other schemes. There is the idea of whirling craft to be launched around on long tethers that cruise aerodynamically at supersonic, indeed hypersonic, speeds to achieve orbital or near-orbital speeds at the tips--such a system could launch a vehicle at any azimuth whatsoever obviously. I don't know what sort of sonic boom it would make, and obviously one wants to launch two balanced weights in opposite directions to avoid major recoil issues.

It is possible to view the concept of the Orbital Ring as an extension of a launch loop all the way around the circumference of the Earth, and that might be one means of constructing such a structure, in stages. More likely if we were to build such things we'd do it in units of complete circles, in orbit, and then spin them up to operational speeds. These dynamic structures in general offer the prospect of sidestepping material strength issues with dynamic control of rapidly moving masses, using inertia as a sort of structural material. An orbital loop would have the property of being composed of elements moving faster than orbital speed, thus in the event of a rupture, they would tend to move away from Earth rather than toward it. (Unless the average speed were greater than escape velocity, they'd eventually orbit back down and pose a hazard to Earth, but the design buys time, hours or even days, to maneuver the pieces to minimize the damage). Thus they pose a lesser threat than a Beanstalk, while offering, if developed extensively, a very wide range of elevator sites to orbital altitudes, and the possibility of many launch azimuths, while avoiding cluttering up orbital space too much. So I'd rather see a network of these things spanning the skies than a single Beanstalk, or even a complex of the latter arcing over the equator.

Now obviously these sorts of things are a massive infrastructural investment. A single launch loop on the scale Keith Lofstrom proposed would be costly. But it would lower the cost per kilogram of material into low Earth orbit tremendously. It makes no sense for the sorts of national space programs by a handful of rich superpowers spending a fraction of governmental largesse to support a half-dozen people in LEO that is the best we've done OTL. But if a movement inspiring many thousands of people to seek work in orbit and beyond were to occur, I think the cost/benefit analyses would come to favor these projects a lot sooner than we'd think based on OTL experience.

In addition to economical access to space, Orbital Rings and perhaps the airborne spinning tether towers offer applications to the Earthbound in the form of fast suborbital transport. Even Lofstrom Loops have some potential in that sort of application, though they don't strike me as flexible enough to justify themselves for that. So capital might be forthcoming quite aside from the question of getting access to space.

In terms of Jared's timeline, these things would not be relevant in the early decades, but I'd think that if Venus proves interesting and profitable enough, launch loops might be developed as early as the mid-1990s, and if space industry taking advantage of free fall and other space "resources" can yield some of the dividends prophets such as G. Harry Stein foretold, the expanding LEO/Lunar space investments might lead to development of early Orbital Rings by our own times. Meanwhile, while transport to Venus (and eventually back from it) will lag using "old-fashioned" rocketry, the scale of the craft--either in big units, or in large numbers of vessels launched with each window--would rise far beyond what could be launched directly from Earth on rockets. To set up a reciprocal launch loop on Venus or Ring around it would involve a massive investment again, but would mark the day that round trip travel to and from Venus becomes an economically feasible thing for ordinary individuals as opposed to deep-pocketed governments.

Therefore, when I imagine a mature infrastructure connecting the two planets, it is no longer a matter of rocketry alone.
 
A notion of an even simpler two-stage launcher from Venus

I've suggested that more or less off the shelf technology (as of a 1970 era decision to push for manned landing and eventual return from Venus) could be engineered into a reusable two-stage launcher, using methane and oxygen generated in situ. Besides the rocket stages themselves, there would need to be some launch structure, a lot of tankage to store cryogenic propellants, the fuel generation facilities, and some means of bringing spent stages that have reentered back to the base.

Perhaps it would be helpful, in this first generation of surface-to-orbit and back again vehicles, to go even simpler than modified F-1 and J-2 engines.

I wonder if a pressure-fed methane-oxygen rocket would be feasible?

The idea here is, instead of using pumps, the two cryogenic fuels are stored under pressure (though still chilled) and this pressure alone is sufficient to pump the two into the combustion chamber. If we simply started with two tanks full of a certain amount of the stuff, the tank pressure and temperature would drop as the fuel flowed, meaning engine mass flow and efficiency would both decline, leading to a dropping thrust and eventual failure of the engine to sustain itself. Many rockets, although relying on pumps to raise propellant pressures to design levels, use stored helium gas under great pressure to gradually fill the emptying propellant tanks and thus maintain tank pressure and hence temperature. But helium is not good for that sort of thing on Venus, since it will be hard to acquire in situ. An alternative however would be to feed back some warmed propellant, enough of each type to its appropriate tank so that the heat brought in matches the heat required to evaporate just enough liquid propellant to a gas that can fill the vacated volume. I gather the Space Shuttle used such a thermal management system. If a pressure fed rocket starts out at maximum pressure it should be possible to maintain that pressure by feeding back some heated gas to each tank. And heat is readily available, threatening to melt the combustion chamber and nozzle of any really powerful rocket engine! It is a question of balances then.

Methane has a critical point of 190 K and 4.6 MPascals (46 atmospheres absolute), meaning that above either that temperature or pressure the stuff ceases to have distinct liquid or gaseous phases, and behaves as a gas-like supercritical fluid. Its triple point is near 91 K and 1/10 of an atmosphere, so there is a 100 degree range in which it can exist as a liquid. Oxygen similarly ranges between 54 K and 154.6, the latter at 50.43 MP. At 150 K, methane has a vapor pressure of about 10 atmospheres, so unfortunately it does not seem that we can simply store the two substances at a common temperature and pressure after all. But if we choose a pressure of say 40 atmospheres, we can store methane at around 180 K and LOX at around 150 K. If insulation is good enough to maintain this 30 degree difference, then a container that can hold this pressure can serve.

Two drawbacks are apparent; we would need a heavy container to keep sufficient volumes of the two liquids at the right pressure even before considering extra weight to keep each one insulated considering we want to launch from an environment of dense air at nearly 310 K. Also, 40 atmospheres can provide for a decent rocket engine, especially one operating in vacuum, but it is not high by the standards of high-performance launch engines, whereas Venus has double the sea level air pressure Earth does. 40 atmospheres pressure-fed might not then be adequate for launching from the surface of Venus; we might perforce need to go over to a pump-fed engine.

The heavy shell can also be seen as a possible advantage. It cuts down on the throw weight of a stage to be sure, but on the other hand a thick heavy structure might be just the thing for surviving many repeated atmospheric entries and rough landings on the surface.

I wonder what some of the trained rocket experts on the site might think of this.

I also wonder whether the methane, flowing around the combustion chamber and upper nozzle, would be adequate to keep a very simple robust structure cool enough. (I don't doubt that it would have more than enough heat to maintain pressure in both the methane tank, through direct injection of a trickle, and via a heat exchanger to provide the right flow of heated oxygen for that tank as well).

If it could work, we'd have two stages with essentially no moving parts at all, save for control valves, the flowing fluids themselves, and some sort of ignition system.
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On the other hand, it occurs to me that by definition of being close to critical temperatures for each fluid, the density of the liquid phase, still distinct from gaseous though much less so that for well below critical temperatures, is not going to be high enough. It would be close to that of an ideal gas at those temperatures and pressures, and that seems far too low to contemplate.

The reason I want to keep the pressures and temperatures at least somewhat below critical is that we don't want the density of the stuff to vary a lot. In liquid phase, the density would be near-constant, so if we can maintain the pressure and temperature in the desired narrow ranges, we have a consistent flow under a fixed pressure and hence a fixed mass flow which will burn predictably and steadily. If we were using supercritical fluids instead, then as we drained each tank, the density and pressure would fall even if we maintained temperature closely. To keep pressure constant, we'd have to raise the tank temperature as we drained it; even at constant pressure the density of the fluid would fall. I suppose the flow rate would also rise, because the density is dropping, but I suspect the mass flow would be falling even so, and we'd have to raise the temperature still faster, thus raising the pressure as well--the pressure vessel would have to be designed to take maximum pressure, not the starting pressure, which is already pretty high, and take it at rising temperatures too. I suppose it can be done, by valving more and more hot gas from the regenerative cooling jacket, or even by combusting that gas for extra heat. Or we could accept a falling mass flow and falling thrust, since the weight of the rocket would be dropping as we burned fuel, but we'd be losing efficiency as well.

So a lot depends on whether the liquid phase near but a few degrees below critical temperature is significantly denser than the gas phase, or not. If not it's essentially the same problem as a compressed gas storage system.
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I've had yet other ideas along these lines, usually while trying to see how some of Keyser's notions for OTRAG might be improved upon without defeating the purpose of ultra-simplicity. Suppose we cooled the chamber and nozzle with ammonia, for instance, and used some of the hot ammonia to sustain pressure in an ammonia reserve while evaporating some of it to pressurize another fuel and hydrogen peroxide as oxidant? Here the pressurant ammonia gas is near standard temperature. I would guess the amount of ammonia we'd need to flush through the hot chambers would exceed considerably the amount we'd want just to maintain pressure evaporatively, and in turn the amount of ammonia we'd want to burn alone with HTHP is more than that, so I'm thinking two fuels--excess cooling ammonia, and some sort of liquid hydrocarbon. If it seems dangerously insane to let ammonia at say 20 atmospheres compress hydrogen peroxide directly, we can store the peroxide in a plastic bag. Keyser of course wanted to use nitric acid as oxidant; it would seem it would probably make for ISP higher than using peroxide, though perhaps not a lot higher. If we can make ammonia or methane, or hydrogen peroxide, in situ, can we also make nitric acid? Can we refine methane into a room-temperature hydrocarbon of some kind for the fuel?

If we are willing to go over to nitric acid and room-temperature hydrocarbons, could we even use steam for the pressurant? Have the engine chamber and upper nozzle soaking in a water bath, with the heat from the combustion boiling water and raising it to a high pressure? I'd shudder at the thought of steam directly pressurizing hydrogen peroxide even with a bag separating the stuff, but would steam be a bad thing to play on top of nitric acid and a suitably heat-tolerant hydrocarbon? Unlike the ammonia steam won't burn usefully in the combustion chamber (which is the point, since I don't want to turn the nitric acid tank into a bomb) but perhaps we can vent excess steam needed to absorb engine heat but not to pressurize the tanks through nozzles on the sides--by closing some of them, we get a vernier guidance engine system? I'm assuming the steam is at the same pressure as the combustion chamber, hence a suitable set of small nozzles should get some efficient thrust from the stuff.
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Whatever solutions we adopt along these lines, they are at least suggestive for reusable systems for launching from Earth. The Venerian system puts a premium on ruggedness and simplicity that need not apply launching from Earth--from Earth we can afford to use much more complex, higher performance engines up to the level of something like the SSME, knowing that upon recovery damaged parts can be fixed or replaced. But if we can design two hulls that can reliably be recovered intact on Venus, with their engines reusable, presumably the same designs, perhaps on a different scale or with details honed to Earth's different economic situation, can achieve similar feats on Earth.

I don't know how much longer I'm going to keep this little series of mine going, but the paragraph above is suggestive of a segue over to Skylon, a proposed SSTO system of OTL for Earth. If we can make something that performs like Skylon, would it be sensible to send some to Venus?

That will be the next thing I'll post about, I think. Don't know when though. Maybe tonight, maybe next weekend?
 
You know my feelings on that matter, e!

If Jared and others haven't caught my rants on other space threads--I'm with e of pi on this, only more fanatically. I hate, hate, hate hypergol launchers.

The toxicity of hypergol fuels is what it is. I personally would not advocate the use of hypergol fuels. However I wrote my proposal from the viewpoint of how things were in the Soviet Union. And history shown they had little problem with the use of hypergol fuel.

The simple fact is that the N-1 design was unworkable as of 1967. While Chelomei was demonstrating that he could get large launchers to work with the UR-500/Proton. With a Venus race the Soviet is going to go with whoever they think can get a tran Venus Spacecraft by the 1972/1973 launch windows.

Since the rules of the time-line state that unless specifically affected things play out as OTL. So that mean in ITL in the autumn of 1967 the N-1 2nd and 3rd stages will definitely get static fire tests. With the possibility of an inhabitable Venus it is likely ITL the first stage will get a static test.

What would you think the result of that test would be? In my opinion it would duplicate the failure of the first N-1 launch. And the analysis would result in the same conclusion that occurred in OTL.

Now in OTL the N-1 failure occurred in 1969 well beyond the period of time the UR-700 project was shelved. ITL the catastrophic failure would in 1967 giving Cholemei a shot at reviving the UR-700 project.

The questions that Jared will have to answer are?

Is the N-1 first stage tested in a static fire in the autumn of 1967 along with the 2nd and 3rd stage static fire test.

If the first stage is tested what was the result?

If the first stage failed what would be the response of the Soviet Leadership.

I will say this. Right now the focus is on the Venus fly-by. Both the United State and the Soviet approaches are dead-ends. While some of the hardware can be used for later programs, to do missions involving Venus orbits and return and eventually the landing will require something new. Adapting lunar hardware is not going to do the job.

Because of that the continued use of hypergolic based rockets like the Proton and the UR-700 is not set in stone. Even Hypergolics don't match the performance of H-Lox rockets.
 
The toxicity of hypergol fuels is what it is. I personally would not advocate the use of hypergol fuels. However I wrote my proposal from the viewpoint of how things were in the Soviet Union. And history shown they had little problem with the use of hypergol fuel.
This is certainly true, if we mean to say that they went ahead and developed such engines for extensive purposes. Not only is the Proton to this very day a workhorse launch system, cited in some places anyway as the cheapest one in terms of cost to put a ton into orbit, but the entire arsenal of Soviet and post-Soviet Russian ICBMs and most smaller missiles are all hypergolic. The military has pretty much standardized on it, where the US military rockets from ICBMs on down have generally gone over to solids instead. Presumably if the Soviets and their successors felt that problems with hypergolic systems were not manageable, they too could have adopted solids, or some other conceivable alternatives. Well, they haven't. Even very large ICBMs tend to be a lot smaller than launch vehicles--less true of the Soviets who had more trouble making smaller warheads and achieving the precision targeting that makes smaller warheads effective, but generally speaking you can't put up a Soyuz spacecraft on an ICBM.

Except in the sense that the "Soyuz" rocket is in fact an old ICBM, the same old R-7 Semyorka that launched Sputnik 1. Somewhat stretched and upgraded, but OTL no cosmonaut has ever gone up into orbit on anything but this old kerosene/LOX design of Korolev's.

You'd think by now they'd consider Proton shaken down enough to switch over to using it for manned launches. It would enable larger spacecraft than Soyuz, or sending a Soyuz farther. But they don't seem to ever try it.
The simple fact is that the N-1 design was unworkable as of 1967.
That most certainly is a fact. Of course in 1967 the Saturn V was just being put through its very first launch tests.

The difference, a general difference between the two programs, is that long before putting a stage together on a pad, Americans would test new engines for many many years, in extensive firing tests. The Soviets were more in the habit of conducting few static tests, and then throwing it all onto the launch pad to see if it would fail in operation, or not. As a result they had a lot of failures on the pad, working out bugs that American practices would often find long before anyone put it all together into a stage.

In 1967, neither the N-1 nor the UR-700 was in sustained development.

Now you say...
While Chelomei was demonstrating that he could get large launchers to work with the UR-500/Proton. With a Venus race the Soviet is going to go with whoever they think can get a tran Venus Spacecraft by the 1972/1973 launch windows.
I think I need to point out this--a UR-700 is not a Proton.

(pictures below hot-link to source article)
This is a Proton:

Or to be exact, this is what Chelomei had ready to hand, demonstrated, in 1967.
The source of the picture and others to follow is Mark Wade's Encyclopedia Astronautica. The picture caption states:
Proton 8K82 as flown in the first four Proton launches. This version had the shorter second stage of the GR-2 ICBM version, but lacked the cancelled UR-500 third stage. Payload with just two stages was hardly better than the much smaller Soyuz 11A511 launch vehicle.
Credit: © Mark Wade

Note that the picture, as a cutaway showing tankage, can be a bit confusing; the first stage has six of the flanking fuel tanks that bear the six engines--these were in fact the same engines Glushko offered for Korolev's N-1 early draft design in 1962. (As they were hypergolic engines Korolev rejected them). The six tanks look at a glance like boosters but the first stage is one unit composed of modules (the tank units being designed to be able to be carried on Soviet railways, so that the rocket, originally intended to be an ICBM, could be constructed at a central plant and then shipped to be assembled at diverse and distant missile bases). The central large tank contains hypergolic oxidant, the outer tanks hydrazine-type fuel.

In November 1968, the three-stage "Proton K," the thing we now think of as a basic Proton, was finally ready to launch. The picture below gives a better idea of what a definitive Proton looks like:



It is of a rocket launched in 1991.

Wade remarks, in the first article I got the first picture from:

Development of the Proton began in 1962 as a two-stage vehicle that could be used to launch large military payloads or act as a ballistic missile with a 100 megaton nuclear warhead. The ICBM was cancelled in 1965, but development of a three-stage version for the crash program to send a Soviet man around the moon began in 1964. The hurried development caused severe reliability problems in early production. But these were eventually solved, and from the 1970's the Proton was used to launch all Russian space stations, medium- and geosynchronous orbit satellites, and lunar and planetary probes.

But he also says, in the next article the second pic is from:
Remarkably, due to continuing failures, the 8K82K did not satisfactorily complete its state trials until its 61st launch (Salyut 6 / serial number 29501 / 29 September 1977). Thereafter it reached a level of launch reliability comparable to that of other world launch vehicles.
Obviously the fact that 60 missions had flown by then, only a few of which were complete failures, suggests the authorities were being remarkably strict and perhaps some of the delay of official certification of the design was due to political spite. Still, it rather underscores another remark Wade makes about the rushed effort to put the capable K version of Proton together (and the lame compromise of the first version). And note that while the period '62-64 plagued both Chelomei and Korolev with vacillations of policy with the regime not settling on any choice in particular, it November 1964 when Chelomei got a definite green light to develop the UR-500 as a launcher to send men around the Moon. So, it took him four years of effort, backed up by at least two years of paper planning before that, to get a half-assed version of the definitive Proton-K, the first capable of that 1964 approved mission, onto a pad.

The overall launch record of the Proton-K Wade gives seems impressive enough:

Failures: 4. Success Rate: 87.10%. First Fail Date: 1972-07-29. Last Fail Date: 1986-11-29. Launch Price $: 50.000 million in 1994 dollars....
First Launch: 1968.11.16.
Last Launch: 2000.07.12.
Number: 31 .

So how bad could those four failures be?

Well, that brings me to the UR-700 you suggest was a nice easy incremental step up from the UR-500 design.

Here's a UR-700, designed for the Chelomei's proposed direct descent/ascent one-cosmonaut lunar landing mission (to be followed up by more ambitious missions using multiple launches to be sure):



Here's a picture of the RD-270 hypergolic engine, that Wade calls "the Soviet answer to the American F-1:"



Now note that the UR-700 launches on nine of these puppies. I believe though I might be mistaken that the outer tanks, in addition to feeing the six outer engines, also cross-fed to fuel the central three as well; then the outer six tanks and associated oxidant tanks would drop off, leaving the central tanks to feed the central three engines to constitute a functional second stage. The third stage, which does use the engines developed for Proton, is still clearly modified, with the fuel tanks and oxidant tanks modified to be the same heights; this would place the Lunar stack into parking orbit.

Even that third stage is clearly not simply a Proton but one could make a case it was substantially ready once the Proton original version was demonstrated.

One can hardly say the same for the lower dual-mode cluster!

Here's the full text of Wade's article:

Glushko N2O4/UDMH rocket engine. 6713 kN. UR-700, R-56 stage 1. Development ended 1968. Isp=322s. Developed 1962-1971, largest rocket engine ever built in the Soviet Union, answer to F-1. Tested but cancelled before combustion instability problems solved.
Authorized for development in the 1962-1971 period, the RD-270 was Glushko's answer to the US F-1 rocket engine and was the largest rocket engine ever built in the Soviet Union. It was to be used on Chelomei's UR-700 lunar vehicle or Yangel's R-56 monster rocket. The UR-700 would have used 6 RD-270 in the first stage. No design bureau would attempt anything like it today. It was the maximum possible power from the design: gas and gas mixture in the combustion chamber; two gas generators in the combustion chamber; one oxidiser rich and one fuel rich; closed cycle; staged burning; very high pressure in the combustion chamber (266 bar compared to about 80 bar in many today, except the SSME). Thrust was 640,000 kgf. Hot fire tests had started (with 40 done) and some units had been proved. Engine head testing had started. The peak of problems had almost been surmounted when all the N-1 lunar program was closed down and efforts had to stop. It never was used on a flight vehicle and funding ran out before combustion instability problems could be solved. Wet Mass: 5603 kg wet. Engine Cycle: closed staged. Feed Method: turbopump.

Application: UR-700, R-56 stage 1.

Characteristics

Thrust (sl): 6,272.000 kN (1,410,001 lbf). Thrust (sl): 639,573 kgf. Engine: 4,470 kg (9,850 lb). Chamber Pressure: 261.00 bar. Thrust to Weight Ratio: 153.24. Oxidizer to Fuel Ratio: 2.67.

AKA: 8D420.
Status: Development ended 1968.
Unfuelled mass: 4,470 kg (9,850 lb).
Height: 4.85 m (15.91 ft).
Diameter: 3.30 m (10.80 ft).
Thrust: 6,713.00 kN (1,509,142 lbf).
Specific impulse: 322 s.
Specific impulse sea level: 301 s.
First Launch: 1962-71.

So--a challenge, a big challenge, and hardly an article anyone could claim was ready to hand in 1967. Wade seems undecided on whether it could indeed have been make to work. With "only" combustion instabilities to solve, it might seem so, given a bit more follow-through. But these were the very things Glushko himself cited in this same late '60s time frame when he confessed he had no confidence he, or any Soviet engineer, could match the American F-1. At the time, indeed, we ourselves had not fully mastered the tendency of the huge combustion chamber to develop those instabilities which would destroy an otherwise working engine in very short order, and Glushko was sure to point out too that even American success was hardly guaranteed at that point. Yet he went ahead and tried tackling the same problem head on in a hypergol engine that ran at even higher pressure than the F-1!

The UR-700 absolutely needed these monsters to work. The alternatives--well, eventually, Soviet designers (possibly Glushko himself) did develop a very powerful kerosene engine that I believe did exceed the thrust of an F-1 or even the improved F-1A (which would make it, not the RD-270, the biggest Soviet engine). They sidestepped the combustion chamber instability issue by using four separate chambers (fed by a common turbopump system, but feeding IIRC into four separate nozzles, so there might be controversy about whether it is one engine or four clustered ones I suppose).

Or, adopt the same solution Korolev and Mishin favored--use lots and lots of good smaller engines, such as Chelomei had ready to hand for Proton. Well, with each of these RD-253 engines generating 1474 kiloNewtons of thrust at sea level, he'd have needed to use either 27 or 39 of them, depending on whether the UR-700 used only 6 RD-270's to launch or used all 9 on the pad. (In each case, I rounded up to the nearest number divisible by 3, since the design relies on three-fold radial symmetry. But in the higher thrust case the proportionate number is indeed just short of 39).

Now I think it is clear, the main argument against the N-1 being a practical design itself is the large number of ker-lox engines on the first stage. The original design called for 24 in a ring around the stage bottom diameter; then later when Mishin felt the pressure to try to provide enough launched massed for a Lunar orbit rendezvous lunar landing mission in just one launch, he added another cluster of six in the center to bring it to 30. We see plainly here that without the heroic solution of an RD-270 engine, Chelomei would be facing the same challenge of successfully ganging together even more engines.

Whether it really was impossible to lick the N-1 first stage problem of many engines or not will remain an open argument for AH. A consensus I've seen emerge and support is that the last six engines were a bridge too far; they had especially problematic plumbing, and what really gets me is that the dang things were only meant to burn for a small fraction of first stage burn anyway--just 30 seconds or so out of two minutes. If the Soviets can accept that they don't have single launch capability to the Moon but they might well have considerably more than half with one unmodified N-1, then two-launch missions capable of considerably more style and much safer margins than Mishin's OTL early Seventies attempt come into play, and successfully shaking down the simplified N-1 might happen sooner than the failures of the 30 engine version. Given a standing start in late 1967, they probably still can't beat the Americans to the Moon--but with Venus landings on the agenda, I submit that they won't skip the Moon even if it is years late, for the Moon might prove crucial for extended Venus operations, and anyway is good practice.

So--to make UR-700 work, we are looking at exactly the same sort of extended, delayed development process that might also have made a useful version of N-1 work just as well.

The choice is hardly the slam-dunk between a "working" rocket and a paper one you suggest. That's like saying the Saturn 1B is the same thing as a Saturn V!

And how likely are the Soviets to prefer a hypergolic rocket over a kerosene one, for this kind of purpose?

Well, Chelomei designed yet more versions of rockets he called UR-700s, but take a look at the one he offered up for multi-launch Mars missions ("Aelita"), designed over a 4 year period starting in 1969



This is the UR-700M. It doesn't look much like its predecessor, does it? And why is it not the -900 instead?

Well, he did propose another hypergolic evolution. And this is what happened, to quote Wade in the above linked article:

By January 1969, Chelomei was proposing the UR-900 for the Mars expedition. Chertok asked Chelomei what would happen if, God forbid, such a booster exploded on the launch pad. Wouldn't the entire launch complex be rendered a dead zone for 18 to 20 years? Chelomei's reply was that it wouldn't explode, since Glushko's engines were reliable and didn't fail. Aside from that, these propellants had been used in hundreds of military rockets, deployed in silos, aboard ships and submarines, with no problem. Fear of these propellants was irrational. Related propellants were used by the Americans on the Apollo manned spacecraft.

Less than three months later, on 2 April 1969, the unimaginable happened. A Proton rocket, one tenth the size of the planned UR-900, was launched in an attempt to send an unmanned probe to Mars. The leadership of the Soviet Rocket Forces and most of the Chief Designers were present for the event. The Proton rocket lifted off, but one engine failed. The vehicle flew at an altitude of 50 m horizontally, finally exploding only a few dozen meters from the launch pad, spraying the whole complex with poisonous propellants that were quickly spread by the wind. Everyone took off in their autos to escape, but which direction to go? Finally it was decided that the launch point was the safest, but this proved to be even more dangerous - the second stage was still intact and liable to explode. The contamination was so bad that there was no way to clean up - the only possibility was just had to wait for rain to wash it away. This didn't happen until the Mars 1969 launch window was closed, so the first such probe was not put into space until 1971.

This accident seems to have made a powerful impression on the military, and plans for a new generation of space launchers drawn up in the early 1970's specified use of non-toxic liquid oxygen and kerosene propellants. This also forced Chelomei to specify these propellants in the redesignated UR-700M for the Mars expedition.

It would seem then that even Soviet generals and apparatchiks, hardened and indifferent though they may be to public opinion, gung-ho to press on, and desirous of streamlining expensive technology into shared systems the military can use along with the space program, don't need to be shown more than twice. Or three or four times perhaps...the kopeck eventually drops.

By the 1970s, it was clear enough that the liabilities of cryogenic propellants were manageable enough, anyway when a launch is planned and requires a large rocket. It is one thing to manage a release of toxic (very, very, toxic, and otherwise obnoxious in many ways too) propellant for something the size of an ICBM. Quite another for something massing 4823 tons, most of it hypergol propellants, seven times the mass of a Proton-K. The energy release of a failed UR-700 alone would be literally in the kiloton range, as in small nuclear bombs!

If the hypergols had a significant edge in performance, they might have reconsidered yet again--but the fact is, Soviet designs from the later 60s of both hypergolic and kerosene-LOX engines were quite good, on the score of ISP anyway--both were clearly superior in that respect to comparable American designs for instance, both pushed the theoretical limits of each propellant type. But ker-lox is in fact theoretically superior, and the on-shelf and projected designs reflected that, with hypergol engines in the 320 range and ker-lox--exceeding 350! Compare that to an F-1 engine in vacuum, in the low 310 range.

Clearly for performance on planned, especially large, launches, Soviet ker-lox technology was the better bet. The liabilities of managing liquid oxygen were small, for a planned scheduled launch that did not require keeping a rocket ready to launch at any indefinite, random time the superpowers decided to push The Button. For the latter military mission, of course storability won the day, in one form or another, but for scheduled launches, why tempt fate for an inferior product?

The simple fact that OTL they did go on with using Proton-K and continue to use its successors even now does show that they are willing to risk it, especially with a very well known system. The Russians are frugal that way; why scrap something that works?

But I think the OTL conversion of Chelomei away from the hypergol fold shows that the apparatchiks could read the writing on the wall well enough to call a halt with the Proton. The Soviets did demonstrate the ability to launch something very big indeed with Energia, which IIRC was a project entrusted to Chelomei, and it did not use hypergols--it used ker-lox boosters designed to also serve as stand-alone small rockets, and a hydrogen-oxygen (disposable engine, and not as good ISP as Shuttle main engines or even J-2, but with a lot of thrust!) core.



Since the rules of the time-line state that unless specifically affected things play out as OTL. So that mean in ITL in the autumn of 1967 the N-1 2nd and 3rd stages will definitely get static fire tests. With the possibility of an inhabitable Venus it is likely ITL the first stage will get a static test.

What would you think the result of that test would be? In my opinion it would duplicate the failure of the first N-1 launch. And the analysis would result in the same conclusion that occurred in OTL.
I wonder why they were even doing the upper stage static firings. But I don't think it is a foregone conclusion that static firing a first stage would have revealed the problems that did take down the N-1 pad tests.

As I understand it, the belief is that the 30-engine array fell to versions of POGO--a disease that Saturn V designers were not fully aware of before American tests of that rocket--and even as late as Apollo 13, the Saturn V second stage with its five-engine array was still suffering from that. (Anti-POGO measures were taken with Apollo 14 and after, I'd guess taking advantage of the lull in launches that followed investigation of the Apollo 13 accident). Basically we are looking at resonance among the fuel lines leading to the engines, and again some people point to the extra cluster of six central engines being a culprit here. When those engines shut down as per the launch sequence, there was a hydrostatic shock through the entire propellant manifold system, believed to have done serious damage to other engines hitherto working just fine. How much of each crash was due to the onboard computer system designed to compensate for engine-out by shutting down the opposite engine was at fault is an open question too--in every case the KORD computer did wind up ordering full shutdown of all engines, but this may have been because more of them were in fact malfunctioning than was realized.

The OTL N-1 was in fact pushed to the red line in the desperate attempt to get a full 95 tons to orbit in many ways. All sorts of dubious measures to lighten the structure were taken--including omitting most of the telemetry installations!:eek: So knowledge of exactly what happened has big holes in it, thanks to that.

Had they been willing to accept the limits of the 24 engine model, and not indulged the panicked urge to cut every corner in sight, holding out for incremental improvements as they gained experience, I suspect a static test of that 24 engine array might have gone well enough.

Or, if it failed, is that grounds to scrap the program? Maybe if they had something as good or better well in hand perhaps. But I think I've shown that the UR-700 was hardly a better realized alternative at that point, and unless it came from behind to show itself vastly superior for some reason we have no grounds to point to, a giant hypergol launcher's days were numbered in the late 60s and early 70's.

The purpose of a static test is to show up problems that one did not anticipate and the amazing thing is that the Soviets ran any significant number of any of them on an N-1 stage. It would make more sense if the N-11 program to use the upper three stages for a smaller launcher in the Proton class were revived, but I gather that was dead in 1967. (Concentration on N-1 would make it sensible to revive it though; the first stage of an N-11, a slight modification of an N-1's B Block, used only 8 of the same engines the N-1 A block would use, so testing it in that role would be useful both for a ker-lox three stage Proton class and suggestive for the big rocket too. And the whole upper three of N-1's 4 stages would be pre-tested as a unit before the first N-1 all up tests.)

So a failed static test is hardly a reason to shut down the program, if there are solutions to the failure at hand.

Then, getting to a launch pad test, probably no sooner than OTl even with the simpler engine array--but with perhaps a more robust stage--even a failure there would not imply giving up yet. OTL they went ahead with three tests, all failures, before throwing in the towel.

But here they need something to rival American heavy lift capability. Even if the Americans scrap the Saturn V (which seems less likely here) that will only be to follow up with something even more capable. Perhaps something like the Shuttle gets funded, but meanwhile we'd still want something capable of putting more than 15-20 tons up at a shot. (Indeed, Shuttle derived launchers could rival the Saturn V--in fact every STS shot that ever succeeded put up some 50 percent more into orbit than any Saturn V shot did! It's just that most of it was the Orbiter, not payload).

If the Soviets do give up on the N-1 design (which, with less of a unbroken record of failure, they would be less likely to do) they still have to buckle down and come up with something to take its place.
Now in OTL the N-1 failure occurred in 1969 well beyond the period of time the UR-700 project was shelved. ITL the catastrophic failure would in 1967 giving Cholemei a shot at reviving the UR-700 project.

The questions that Jared will have to answer are?

Is the N-1 first stage tested in a static fire in the autumn of 1967 along with the 2nd and 3rd stage static fire test.

If the first stage is tested what was the result?

If the first stage failed what would be the response of the Soviet Leadership.
These are the questions to answer. Bearing in mind that the UR-700 is not ready to go and won't be for at least as long as it might take to shake down the N-1, I don't think the answers veer in the former's favor.

You seem to be committed to the idea that there is no way any version of N-1 could ever work. Which is not unreasonable; I'm probably biased by some TLs in the past few years which assert it could.

But if it can't work I think the best Soviet answer is to develop a more powerful ker-lox engine, something they have done OTL, along with even more ambitious things. It's right up their alley, anyway if they "cheat" with multiple combustion chambers. And why not?

Chelomei might get the nod for designing a rocket around that yet. He got Energia OTL, so why not? Mishin is probably just as OTL turning into a hopeless drunkard after all.:(

The key is getting Glushko onto the ker-lox, or meth-lox, or hydrogen, bandwagon.
...
Because of that the continued use of hypergolic based rockets like the Proton and the UR-700 is not set in stone. Even Hypergolics don't match the performance of H-Lox rockets.

That last sentence implies you actually think hypergols are inherently superior to ker-lox? Look again. Hypergols have certain advantages--that their fuels store well on Earth (in space there is some risk of them freezing!) and that they ignite spontaneously. These are useful things. They are a close second to kerosene-oxygen in theoretical performance, not better--but pretty good, good enough to use when there are issues of long-term storage, or one wants a simpler, more robust engine that is therefore more reliable, as with the American Agena workhorse. I think it was easier, in the late 50s and early 60s, to push them closer to ideal performance than ker-lox in those days. And part of that was having a lot of designers hired to push them, for military applications that had ample funding of diverse firms/design bureaux.

But they aren't inherently superior in terms of performance. Kerosene and oxygen are cheaper (insofar as that matters; propellant costs are a small item in the total bill of building and launching a rocket) as Korolev argued back in Khrushchev's day.

Hydrogen-oxygen gives far better ISP than either--offset by the greater difficulty of handling the hydrogen and for that matter harnessing the inherently greater heat the superior fuel releases. Thus it is hard to get the sort of thrust one can more easily get from either hypergols or kerosene. Methane fuel would be somewhere in the middle.

I'm going to finish this now and pick up on the penultimate paragraph in a second post, because it is not haggling over technical and historic details like this post has been, but about the deeper philosophy of how a habitable Venus might change human priorities.
 
Shevek, wasn't a member of your family involved, or hurted, by one of the two Titan II ICBM silo mishaps in 1965 and 1980 ?

Yes. 1980, the Damasus AR incident, near Little Rock.

I was not going to bring it up because I find people get it confused. So to clarify, there was a team in a silo that my uncle was not a member of. One of them dropped a tool onto a Titan II missile, which was damaged and started to leak propellant. In the past I believed they all died right there, but actually I gather they evacuated the silo immediately. Then the missile's propellants finally blew up hours later; there was one fatality and other injuries.

Some time after all this, my uncle led the team that was sent down to investigate and clean up.

Every man on that team contracted the same kind of cancer and died; my uncle was the last of them, dying a few years ago, decades after retiring from the Air Force.

The USAF does not acknowledge any connection between their clean-up mission and the manner of their deaths.

Anyway, it is fair to say that knowing what I know now, I have skin in this game.

But I've been on this site since long before my Uncle's death, and while I knew he was suffering from a cancer for well over ten years before he died, I had no idea that he and my aunt connected it to that incident. I found this out at the funeral.

And I'm on record here, I believe, long before that day, as being against hypergolic launchers. The personal connection I have now makes it that much more real for me but I never liked the damn things in the abstract, and the reasons I give stand or fall as matters of fact.

Since there is now always this implication that I'm just grief-crazed, and along with that people mix the story up to put my uncle on the team that caused the accident, I'm not sure I should have shared the story. But I suppose it is only proper that I have.

And it does underscore the point of just how toxic typical hypergolic propellants are. Note that by the time my Uncle was brought to the site and ordered down, the bulk of the reactants had long ago blown themselves out of containment with enough force to send a multi-ton warhead a fair distance away, the remnants free to dissipate in the breeze. What they dealt with was traces, and combustion residues, and I presume they were reasonably well suited with good gas masks. Even so, they all got poisoned. From dissipated residues.

That's the sort of thing the Kazhak and other tribespeople living downrange of the Soviet/Russian launch site are complaining about now. The rockets that evidently have poisoned them flew miles above their heads and the stages didn't come crashing down until all the propellant had been consumed. Even so, they are sick--from decades accumulation of traces.

None of this means I'm out there with a sign saying to ban all use of this stuff, not even in space. In moderate quantities hypergolic propellants are too useful to forbid.

But I do think if there is a smart alternative it should be preferred, especially since there tend to be other advantages besides avoiding use of really really toxic glop to also favor them.

And much of what I posted today about Soviet experience is new to me, and underscores that they too knew that playing with this stuff is risky. So if they can avoid it, they will in my opinion.

Even Chelomei and Glushko evidently came around OTL. Why should they be any stupider here?

If Jared goes ahead and decides they will make the muddle-headed decision to build things like the UR-700 (or even -900, which apparently was going to mass not 5000 but 7000 tons!:eek:) I will still keep reading with a certain morbid glee. But if you ask my opinion, I'd say they aren't that dumb.
 
Shevek23
i'm sorry for your uncle dead

The USAF used a gruesome mixture of Rocket propellant 50/50 mixture of hydrazine and unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine and Dinitrogen tetroxide
and they used the cleanup product freon 113 aka Trichlorotrifluoroethane
with freon 113 was the Titan II cleaned in silo WITHOUT protective gear or gas mask !

on UR-700 monster
SpaceGeek and I try that for first version of 2001: A Space-Time Odyssey
do all reason mention above, we abandon the use of UR-700 and restart the TL with adapted N1 rocket...
 
(Indeed, Shuttle derived launchers could rival the Saturn V--in fact every STS shot that ever succeeded put up some 50 percent more into orbit than any Saturn V shot did! It's just that most of it was the Orbiter, not payload).
That can't be right, the Saturn V would put around 139mt into LEO for the Apollo missions(most if that mass being the 3rd stage and propellants), where as the Shuttle orbiter weighed a max of around 109mt. If you put the external tank in orbit too then they work out around equal I believe.

The Soviets did demonstrate the ability to launch something very big indeed with Energia, which IIRC was a project entrusted to Chelomei, and it did not use hypergols--it used ker-lox boosters designed to also serve as stand-alone small rockets, and a hydrogen-oxygen (disposable engine, and not as good ISP as Shuttle main engines or even J-2, but with a lot of thrust!) core.
Just a correction here, the Hydrolox core engines for Energia(RD-0120) had about equal ISP to the SSME(455 vac vs 453 vac), and much better performance than the J-2(421s vac ISP)
 
That can't be right, the Saturn V would put around 139mt into LEO for the Apollo missions(most if that mass being the 3rd stage and propellants), where as the Shuttle orbiter weighed a max of around 109mt. If you put the external tank in orbit too then they work out around equal I believe.

not quite, the Shuttle derived launchers kick the 109 ton orbiter out the equation
means no crew, no cabin, no life support, no heat shield, no wings, no avionics, just the Payload encasement, engines with there computer and shuttle RCS
and suddenly you lift not 28 tons, but 60 to 80 tons in low orbit.

Just a correction here, the Hydrolox core engines for Energia(RD-0120) had about equal ISP to the SSME(455 vac vs 453 vac), and much better performance than the J-2(421s vac ISP)

the RD-120 was High pressure engine like the SSME but running at 218 Bar compare to the 207 Bar of SSME
 
Shevek23
i'm sorry for your uncle dead

The same. I'm really surprised at this point "I" am not dead or worse (and yes there's worse) with all the crap I was exposed to in my time in the military. Then again its not like people were really aware of the dangers at the time. For instance...

The USAF used a gruesome mixture of Rocket propellant 50/50 mixture of hydrazine and unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine and Dinitrogen tetroxide
and they used the cleanup product freon 113 aka Trichlorotrifluoroethane
with freon 113 was the Titan II cleaned in silo WITHOUT protective gear or gas mask!

They actually DID wear protective "gear" of rubber gloves and coveralls but the real killer in the case of the freon 113 was the issue of oxygen displacement. Gas masks weren't any good for either the cleaning materials (freon 113) or the propellants as only fully sealed gear in the latter case and breathing (air packs) in the former were "protective" in nature.

The toxicity of the propellants was well known (as was their reactivity) but given the circumstances acceptable for an early ICBM. The Russian's were much more "forgiving" with storable-hypergolics but they also had a very different "operational" system overall which contributed to their continued use of those propellants. They continue to be used due to existing infrastructure and operations support outside of Russia, but to a much lesser extent due to those same factors.

Efforts to change the situation, (the originally proposed propulsion system for the X-37 which was to use H2O2 as an oxidizer for example) tend to fail due to those same factors and the cost of switching over to a newer propellant.

Randy
 
Yes. 1980, the Damasus AR incident, near Little Rock.

I was not going to bring it up because I find people get it confused. So to clarify, there was a team in a silo that my uncle was not a member of. One of them dropped a tool onto a Titan II missile, which was damaged and started to leak propellant. In the past I believed they all died right there, but actually I gather they evacuated the silo immediately. Then the missile's propellants finally blew up hours later; there was one fatality and other injuries.

Some time after all this, my uncle led the team that was sent down to investigate and clean up.

Every man on that team contracted the same kind of cancer and died; my uncle was the last of them, dying a few years ago, decades after retiring from the Air Force.

The USAF does not acknowledge any connection between their clean-up mission and the manner of their deaths.

Anyway, it is fair to say that knowing what I know now, I have skin in this game.

But I've been on this site since long before my Uncle's death, and while I knew he was suffering from a cancer for well over ten years before he died, I had no idea that he and my aunt connected it to that incident. I found this out at the funeral.

And I'm on record here, I believe, long before that day, as being against hypergolic launchers. The personal connection I have now makes it that much more real for me but I never liked the damn things in the abstract, and the reasons I give stand or fall as matters of fact.

Since there is now always this implication that I'm just grief-crazed, and along with that people mix the story up to put my uncle on the team that caused the accident, I'm not sure I should have shared the story. But I suppose it is only proper that I have.
Sorry to hear about your uncle, Shevek.
 
First off sorry to hear what happened to your uncle.

Second I know the difference between a UR-700 and a Proton.

In 1967, neither the N-1 nor the UR-700 was in sustained development.

In 1967 the N-1 was in development and progressed to the point to static fire testing of the 2nd and 3rd state. That part is documented.

As for the UR-700 while rocket wasn't in development beyond planning the RD-270 engines were and there was several static fire tests. In OTL the program overall was low priority so it didn't progress fast and eventually cancelled when the whole lunar program was shutdown.

So wasn't all papers in 1967.

it November 1964 when Chelomei got a definite green light to develop the UR-500 as a launcher to send men around the Moon. So, it took him four years of effort, backed up by at least two years of paper planning before that, to get a half-assed version of the definitive Proton-K, the first capable of that 1964 approved mission, onto a pad.

Well, that brings me to the UR-700 you suggest was a nice easy incremental step up from the UR-500 design.

I don't believe the UR-70 is a nice easy incremental step at all. I just believe if the Soviet leadership were decide that a no holds barred development of a heavy launcher was need that Chelomei would get the nod over Mishin and that Chelomei has a high chance of success despite the cost of using toxic fuels based on OTL track record.

I also believe that while is is plausible that Chelomei would succeed with the UR700 by the 72/73 launch window. The most probable result would be at least one really bad accident resulting in hypergols being dumped over the landscape either at Baikonur (sp?) itself or downrange.

But writing ATL is not always going with the most probable result.

I think regardless of whether there is a accident the next phase the Soviet would switch away from the UR700 to something safer. I think the point of departure is too late to allow the N-1 to launch something for the either the 72 or 73 window. Instability and pogo will just drag out the development for far too long.

Again I am sorry what happened to your uncle, but this is my view on the situation in 1967. It sucks because no matter how anybody slices it the Soviet leadership was a gang of ruthless thugs and if they considered something important they will do anything to achieve it.
 
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