United States of the Americas and Oceania Version 2.0

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I'm guessing Poland probably has a monarchy under a minor German house - maybe the old Saxon Wettin line. Likely a relatively powerful Sejm or military, depending on social conditions, holds most of the power though. On that topic, one idea for a compromise candidate to the Spanish throne - a Bavarian Wittlesbach!

What are the administrative capitold of the European colonies? Here are my guesses:

Deutsch-Marokko: Marrakesch
Duetsch-Mittelafrika: Kaiser Wilhelmstadt - The site of Leopoldville, or less likele Brazzaville.
Deutsch-Ostindien: Batavia (perhaps renamed "Germania")
Deutsch-Hinterindien: Saigon
Africa Settentrionale Italiana: Tripoli, or perhaps Tunis (renamed Cartagine Nuova - New Carthage)
Africa Orientale Italiana: Addis Ababa
Asia Sudeste Italiana: Bangkok
 

Eurofed

Banned
A lot of interesting and useful points you make. :D

Your argument makes me more aware of how much the SGW and the Chinese Revolution are actually interwined for the future of the TL. This sadly means for my lazy butt that the latter should happen just before or during the SGW, so I have to plan, and in all likelihood write, both of them in the next update, sigh. This also suggests me that in order to foster what looks like the most likely development path, I have to prefer plausible butterflies that makes the transition of China to modernization not too troublesome, long, or traumatic, as far as conditions would allow.

If the US and the EE stay on good terms until the 21st Century, Africa could be a test case for partnership and development between the world's most powerful blocs, and the best argument for a new, closer global order.

Alternatively, if the US and EE do end up on opposite sides of a 3rd GW, US naval predominance means that subsaharan Africa is all-but lost to the EE, and even North Africa may suffer an "Operation Torch". But I don't get the sense that's where this TL is going.

Good points. The first development path is interesting since it indicates how by the 21st century this world might actually come closer to global political unity than I had originally expected.

In many ways the most interesting question of TTL's 20th Century will be the balance of power in an Asia that features five independent great powers - Russia, Japan, India, China, and Egypt, plus strong presences of both the US and the EE.

The obvious frictions are as follows. India and Russia are too close for comfort and are natural enemies, in a direct continuation of the Great Game. Egypt probably still desires influence in Persia and Central Asia. Japan, as already mentioned, has an anti-Russian tilt. Russia, in addition to seeing her worst nightmate, a powerful Sweden, Poland and Turkey (here, Egypt) back from the grave in the European context, will be desperate to hold on to her Asian empire. As for China, its a question of to what extent they recover. If they seem on the path to power, China's natural ally is Russia and, if EE-US relations fray, the US. If not, China will try to cling to neutrality to the extent possible, but end up deeply penetrated by Japanese, European, American and even Indian influence, while Russia makes a play for influence in the Western and Northern provinces.

A lot of interesting points. After the 2GW, Russia would hence have a strong interest in fostering the recovery of China, then, more so than any other great power.

At *Versailles, the powers will probably seek a strong India, but they may be leery of a strong China. OTOH, they may see Russia as truly beaten and China as a non-factor, and end up pulling out of the Legation cities. If they preserve them, though, they won't be British - most likely, they'll be divided up between Germany, Italy and Japan, with the US complaining but acquiescing in exchange for the guarantee of the rest of China. The great powers, defeated and rising, may not see it yet - but Asia writ large has the potential to be the Balkans writ large of TTL - the powder keg of Earth.

Agreed on the potential for Asia to be Balkans of the global order in TTL 20h century. Honestly, I would snuff out the expectation that TTL USA shall necessarily feel a special drive to pursue a pro-Chinese policy, despite the OTL clichè. TTL has wholly different premises, and things may easily go in a wholly different direction, if the US-EE-Japan axis remains strong.

As it concerns the Western (including Japan for this purpose) foothold in China, it obviously depends on how political events in China unfold, but unless it completely falls into chaos and warlordism, I suppose it might not be too difficult to have the Western powers lose control of their spheres of influence in China during the 2GW. As it concerns the cities themselves, I'm uncertain whether to have the great powers pull out from them as well, or leave them into place to be further irredentist issue of contention.

The one odd country is the UK. The US, more than any other power, is responsible for destroying their empire and naval dominance. OTOH, there is a powerful British fear going back centuries of a united Europe. And the UK has the example of Ireland next door, an enthusiastic US state, and of France languishing on the Continent. Culturally, politically, and of course linguistically, the UK is much closer to the US (especially the formerly Commonwealth bits) than the EE. If push comes to shove, I think the UK joins the US either as a set of states or at least a close ally - ESPECIALLY if the US and the EE come to blows or nearly so, but likely even if relations remain cordial.

Interesting. More of an argument to justify the reasonable expectation that one way or another the long US-UK drama of TTL shall end with America absorbing Britain. :D

Increasingly starting to wonder if you shouldn't write two versions of TTL's 20th Century - a world of cooperation with no 3GW, and a more troubled world featuring a 3GW and/or a Cold War.

I would just point out that there is a plausible middle ground between a 3GW or Cold War caused by an estrangement between the USA and the EE, and total cooperation between all of TTL superpowers and great powers. As you point out, the USA, EE, Japan, and India have good reason to cooperate on one side, and Russia and China do as well on the other side. This might be a plausible seed for this world's last global conflict, be it a 3GW or a Cold War.

Yet too early to say whether there is justification to make the twin variant TLs you describe, however. There can't be divergence till the post-2GW period.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Allrighty put in the EE borders, let me know if those are off.

Everything seems OK, good job indeed. :D

I'm liking the ideas of Mikegold as far as African super-states. If local infighting can be avoided/butterflied, those potential nations can be fairly powerful entities with large population bases and tons of untapped resources.

If an estrangement between the two main superpowers can be avoided, I see no good reason why they ought not to be able to bring TTL Africa on such a favorable development path. Of course, if there is a Cold War with the Russo-Chinese bloc, there may be some potential for destabilization.

I also think the US and the EE are going to stay on pretty good terms. I don't think any more expansionist tendencies remain in either, and their alliance has served them too well thus far.

This indeed seems the most likely path, especially if I can draw the potential from elsewhere for some residual meaningful international conflict that can avoid making the TL look too much like "end of history", especially if the technological level is not yet good enough for space colonization.

Britian has been punished pretty hard, I think a revolution may be inevitable on the Isles. All the returning Loyalists from the former British colonies aren't going to be happy.

Yep. Besides the huge losses of the peace deal, there are also the means of defeat themselves that can give Britain a mighty push towards revolution. Basically speaking, there are two ways the US and the CP can use to bring Britain to its knees, after they are done with the colonies: a Sealion or a total naval blockade. Neither look very promising for the political stability of the British Isles. ;)

Do airplanes make an appearance in the SGW or have they already been introduced a good deal earlier ITTL? You may have already covered that but I forget.

Airplanes have been introduced in the mid-late 1880s. A decade of pioneer development followed, by the 2GW they ought to be advanced enough to see their first large-scale military development, more or less similar to OTL early 1920s in scope, just like the other aspects of the technological level.

And what type of government does Poland-Lithuania have?

A liberal-conservative constitutional monarchy, of course, just like the rest of the CP block (well, Egypt is not yet anywhere so liberal, but eventually they shall evolve to fit the model). ITTL Poland has been able to keep its own autonomy statute under Russian rule, and its constitution was slightly bit more liberal than Russia's own liberal-authoritarian hybrid to begin with. Independence under the EE aegis makes them fully reshape themselves to the CP liberal-conservative constitutional monarchy model. As for who gets the throne, I suppose mikegold's suggestions fit the bill (I'm not that much keen, or interested, in dynastic issues).
 
Agreed, any divergence would be post-2GW.

The powers most likely to be dissatisfied with the current world order are Russia, China, and Britain - but of those, only Russia has the reasonable prospect of assembling a coalition against the EE, India, Japan and perhaps the US. China will be interested in joining this coalition if their politics, infrastructure, economy and military are ready for the struggle. Britain, OTOH, may sympathize, but without colonies or naval dominance she will NOT go to war against the US and all of Europe. Britain only comes in if the US joins the Russo-Chinese bloc. Otherwise, I think they're one of, if not the only, true neutral in the 3GW - a bit like Ireland in OTL's WWII, politically, and the likeliest arbiter when the conflict finally ends.

I'm not actually clear on whether the US would come in to support the EE and Japan in less they're in danger of collapse. Neither Russia nor China directly threatens even this vast US since, on the whole, they're still land powers and the US controls the seas and the skies. So you might see a late-entry US along the lines of the US in OTL's world wars, even though they do come in early in the first. If the US feels loyal enough to their allies to demand an early declaration against Russia and China, it may still not be much more than a war on paper, unless and until Russia and China seem to be gaining the upper hand. But if that's the scenario - say, Russia threatens to capture Berlin and the Suez - this will still be a world where the US is unquestionably the top dog, though less so than OTL. Alternately, the EE, India and Japan may win on their own, or effectively so - in which case the US be more peripheral to the military-political world order (though still dominant economically).

Now, if the US did come in against the EE and Japan, it's a whole new ballgame. They are the decisive power and would tip the balance, leading to a decisive victory for their bloc and a very different world order in some ways reminiscent of OTL (Japan and Western Europe under American leadership, Russia and China leading the other, authoritarian bloc).

As to the Chinese revolution - you can always just hint at it. (I.e. - China, of course, was hampered by continuing political instability.) Feel free to put the update off until after the 2GW, since we don't want to wait any longer than necessary. You can always retcon a couple things si necesario.
 
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Eurofed

Banned
Likely a relatively powerful Sejm or military, depending on social conditions, holds most of the power though.

Poland under Russian rule was a slightly more liberal version of the Russian system, which is akin to OTL Kaiserreich, but a bit more slanted to the authoritarian side (but still much more liberal than OTL autocracy).

Independent Poland-Lithuania shall pattern itself on the CP model, which is more or less the standard across the EE (except Egypt, which is still halfway the transition to liberalism). The Parliament and the party system are poweful and control the executive and national policy, but the monarch, although quite the figurehead, is not so neutered as in the British system and carries somewhat more reserve powers and indirect influence on the political system through advice. CP monarchs are much more like presidents of parliamentary republics in this regard. The civil service and the military, although ultimately subject to political control, keep a sizable degree of influence and autonomy due to their vast prestige (for that matter, the military carries a huge lot of prestige in the USA, too, even if civilian control is just as strong as IOTL).

What are the administrative capitold of the European colonies? Here are my guesses:

Deutsch-Marokko: Marrakesch
Duetsch-Mittelafrika: Kaiser Wilhelmstadt - The site of Leopoldville, or less likele Brazzaville.
Deutsch-Ostindien: Batavia (perhaps renamed "Germania")
Deutsch-Hinterindien: Saigon
Africa Settentrionale Italiana: Tripoli, or perhaps Tunis (renamed Cartagine Nuova - New Carthage)
Africa Orientale Italiana: Addis Ababa
Asia Sudeste Italiana: Bangkok

Interesting suggestions. I see no reason to not adopt them. Tunis rather than Tripoli for sure. Just remember that there is a very strong divide between the North African territories, that are rather Europeanized and/or European settler colonies in character, and the others, that are much more like classical exploitation colonies.
 
I had a funny thought about this alternate world. Do you think this America's schools would have a map that normally features the Pacific as the center of the world, rather than the Atlantic?
 

Eurofed

Banned
I had a funny thought about this alternate world. Do you think this America's schools would have a map that normally features the Pacific as the center of the world, rather than the Atlantic?

Maybe, or maybe not. Although the geopolitical focus of this USA is in the Pacific, its main cultural roots are in Europe, and that's where the other main superpower is going to be.
 
More like the Americas will be centered with Eurasia split in half.


Maybe, or maybe not. Although the geopolitical focus of this USA is in the Pacific, its main cultural roots are in Europe, and that's where the other main superpower is going to be.
 
Will there be any kind of Eastasia equivalent in this TL? At all? Even in the distant future?

I'm sorry if I've already asked this question before, but I've been looking through the comments and I couldn't find what I was looking for! :(

Do you think that there's a chance that the Japanese will be allowed to form a Far East hegemony by annexing China and Indochina at some point in the future? Maybe after a big, messy WWIII?
 

Eurofed

Banned
Will there be any kind of Eastasia equivalent in this TL? At all? Even in the distant future?

Do you think that there's a chance that the Japanese will be allowed to form a Far East hegemony by annexing China and Indochina at some point in the future? Maybe after a big, messy WWIII?

Well, at the moment I'd say "maybe" and leave the issue open-ended, since my plans for Asia are far from formed enough to give a different answer. Up to this point, the TL certainly has potential to see something of this sort happen.
 
Well, at the moment I'd say "maybe" and leave the issue open-ended, since my plans for Asia are far from formed enough to give a different answer. Up to this point, the TL certainly has potential to see something of this sort happen.
If you do it, then I will applause you for doing the impossible, an plausible 1984 setup of nations.
 
Will there be any kind of Eastasia equivalent in this TL? At all? Even in the distant future?

I'm sorry if I've already asked this question before, but I've been looking through the comments and I couldn't find what I was looking for! :(

Do you think that there's a chance that the Japanese will be allowed to form a Far East hegemony by annexing China and Indochina at some point in the future? Maybe after a big, messy WWIII?

I don't want to sound like I'm making a cliche, but I have to say this: ANY attempt by the Japanese to successfully "annex" China will only, at best, be able to assert minor control, with a guaranteed civil war.

And this type of war will be likened to Vietnam, but with one big difference.

The hypothetical Sino-Japanese war of this type is to Vietnam as Vietnam is to the Aroostook war.

Assimilation by the Chinese into Japanese culture is near-borderline ASB.
 
I agree... In that any attempt on the part of the Japanese to 'replace' Chinese culture with Japanese culture would be retarded. It'd be like Germany trying to wholesale annex France right after WWII.

If there's going to be any sort of successful integration between China and Japan, Japan will have to look to the USA for an example of how to sustain a multicultural union, not the EE.
 

Eurofed

Banned
I agree... In that any attempt on the part of the Japanese to 'replace' Chinese culture with Japanese culture would be retarded. It'd be like Germany trying to wholesale annex France right after WWII.

If there's going to be any sort of successful integration between China and Japan, Japan will have to look to the USA for an example of how to sustain a multicultural union, not the EE.

I see your point, and mostly agree. I just remark that in the end, the EE is going to turn out just as inclusive as OTL EU in its home turf, and signifcantly more so because of the presence of the Egyptian Empire. The ethnic cleansings in the territories annexed from France and in the assimilated Maghreb colonies are going to be the exception rather than the rule, driven by special circumstances, but in the end Iberia shall get a treatment similar to OTL post-WWII Italy, and France a treatment similar to OTL post-WWII West Germany, not that bad given the circumstances.

Now, if you refer to the differences between the way the USA deal with their own conquered territories, and the way Germany and Italy manage their colonial empires, yes yes I see your point.

Believe me, I am very well aware of the serious political difficulties that a successful integration of China in a Japan-led eastern Asian confederal polity (or for that matter of Russia in a CP-led Eurasian federal polity) entail.

Nonetheless, I am expecting that something like say the defeat of China (and Russia) in a 3GW they start followed by a humane peace deal and eventually a place at the table as equals might just do the trick.
 
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Okay, first off, AMAZING timeline, i really love it.

Secondly, a few questions. I'll admit i didn't read ALL 53 pages so these questions might be fairly stupid. If so, i apologize in advance.

1. The Isle of Man and Lundy; both small crown dependencies well within reach of USAO expansionalism. I think maybe a referendum on the part of the Manx could had it over to the USAO fairly easily. Lundy's harder but i'm sure you could figure it out.

2. What happened to Liberia? Probably something i've missed but i'm still interested.

Either way, like i said, this is probably the best TL i've ever seen. Really great work :)
 

Eurofed

Banned
Okay, first off, AMAZING timeline, i really love it.

Thankee. :D

Secondly, a few questions. I'll admit i didn't read ALL 53 pages so these questions might be fairly stupid. If so, i apologize in advance.

Uhm, I've noticed the size of the thread has apparently gotten intimidating to some readers. Well, given my writing pace, and the scope and detail of the TL, I can't really do much about the size of the updates, or the fact that most of the thread is comment and discussion on them (moreover, it has often been quite helpful to the author :D. At best, I could create a second thread, with a compiled version of the TL, like Glen and Big Tex have done with their own TLs.

1. The Isle of Man and Lundy; both small crown dependencies well within reach of USAO expansionalism. I think maybe a referendum on the part of the Manx could had it over to the USAO fairly easily. Lundy's harder but i'm sure you could figure it out.

Hmm, typically I do not concern myself with little island territories if I can avoid it, unless there are strong TL reasons to give them notability. I pretty much let some regular readers do all the work of creating TTL colonization settlement for the various minor island groups on the world map. :D

2. What happened to Liberia? Probably something i've missed but i'm still interested.

ITTL the Liberia project got rather more support from US ruling elites, so a greater number of US former slaves was shipped to Liberia (20-25% of the pre-ACW free black population) and the state got bigger than OTL (it absorbed Sierra Leone). Over the years, Liberia grew into a de facto US protectorate and the Americo-Liberian elite did their best to build a close copy of American society, especially its Dixie variant. While Liberia was never high in the foreign policy priorities of the USA, they gave it enough half-minded patronage to safeguard it from European colonization of Africa.

If my current plans for the 2GW get fulfilled, after the war we may see Liberia grow into a West African middle power, since the victor powers shall settle the issue of what to do with Franco-Iberian West African colonies by awarding them to Liberia. As a counterbalance to this, protectorate ties with the USA shall be severed.
 
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Hmm, typically I do not concern myself with little island territories if I can avoid it, unless there are strong TL reasons to give them notability. I pretty much let some regular readers do all the work of creating TTL colonization settlement for the various minor island groups on the world map. :D

How about a pro-USAO leiutenant governer comes to power in the Isle of Man, holding a referendum on whether to join the union or to stay part of Britian. They vote to join the union. The British are irritated but realize there's nothing they can do.

Like it?
 
How about a pro-USAO leiutenant governer comes to power in the Isle of Man, holding a referendum on whether to join the union or to stay part of Britian. They vote to join the union. The British are irritated but realize there's nothing they can do.

Like it?

After Ireland has joined the Union? Sounds fairly valid.
 
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