Two states founded in 1946 - Israel and Palestine

Zireael

The POD as stated in the title. What are the possible borders? I want maps, please.


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The idea of Jerusalem as international city presented here is nice and possible too.

***
Similar thread with a later POD here.
 

Zireael

I didn't know about the 1947 Partition Plan. I looked it up on the wiki. Why did the Arabs reject it?

I can't get the map for the Peel Commission to show, it's a mess on Wikipedia.
 

Aztinca

Not sure if this helps, but here are some links to maps I found.

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ReligDistributionJerusalem
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http://libwiki.mcmaster.ca/geog3ur3/uploads/Jerusalem/Jerseg2.jpg

http://libwiki.mcmaster.ca/geog3ur3/uploads/Jerusalem/Secularjerusalem.jpg
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Other
http://www.venueforliving.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Jerusalem-Metropolitan-Area.jpg

http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/metropolitan jerusalem.jpg

http://www.theglobaleducationproject.org/mideast/info/maps/greater-jerusalem-map.gif
 

Zireael

Thanks for the maps, but I was rather hoping for the maps of the region and the Israel/Palestine borders.

My mum and me were discussing how it would be better if two states had been founded, but can't imagine the borders... which would satisfy both sides or at least be a compromise.
 

RousseauX

Donor
Zireael said:
My mum and me were discussing how it would be better if two states had been founded, but can't imagine the borders... which would satisfy both sides or at least be a compromise.
Click to expand...
That's the thing, it can't largely because ethnic groups don't settle in nice congruent, contiguous shapes which makes states viable, someone is probably going to end up getting ethnically cleansed no matter what and no side is going to agree to that group being themselves.

yy8nn.gif

yy8nn
 

Zireael

Thanks for the map. Aye, I can see why proposing any sort of borders in such a situation is very difficult...
 

Rich Rostrom

Zireael said:
I didn't know about the 1947 Partition Plan. I looked it up on the wiki. Why did the Arabs reject it?
Click to expand...

The Arabs of Palestine objected to sovereignty over roughly half the country being awarded to a bunch of recent immigrants. They particularly objected to it being awarded to non-Moslems, and especially to it being awarded to Jews, who would be ruling over hundreds of thousands of Moslem Arabs in their sector. (The 1947 division of Palestine created the largest possible Jewish zone that would have a Jewish majority.)

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who was probably the most important Palestinian Arab leader, was a notorious anti-semite who spent World War II hanging out in Nazi Germany.

Middle Eastern Arabs were in general pro-Nazi during WW II, and always anti-semitic. (I know, I know - Arabs are technically semites.) Moslems in particular were intolerably offended by the notion of part of the Dar ul-Islam becoming a state ruled by non-Moslems. Thus Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Trans-Jordan, and even Lebanon went to war in support of the Palestinian Arabs.


Also, fairly obviously, the territory left to Arab sovereignty isn't exactly a viable nation-state.
 

commanderkai

Zireael said:
So, if orange were to take up more, would they agree?
Click to expand...

Nope, because the Arabs rejected past Partition plans that gave the Jews even less territory. Below is the Peel Commission Report proposal for partition of the British Mandate of Palestine between a Jewish and an Arab state.

Peel1937-new.gif
 

MattII

Well for starters, any state split into two (at least, where the only way to connect the parts is through someone else's land) is almost bound to fail.
 

Zireael

Looking at the map, I do not understand why they didn't accept that proposal, since it's an inversion of the orange-purple map posted several posts up.
 

oudi14

I always felt that it was a great pity that when the dust settled after the 1948 war of independence, the Arabs didn't come together and try to form a Palestinian state out of what territory Israel didn't control. It would have been a very imperfect solution, but it would have been something to begin with, to build on.
After all, if there is ever a two state solution reached, it will have to be roughly along these lines anyway, the pre-1967 borders.
 

Dahveed323

oudi14 said:
I always felt that it was a great pity that when the dust settled after the 1948 war of independence, the Arabs didn't come together and try to form a Palestinian state out of what territory Israel didn't control. It would have been a very imperfect solution, but it would have been something to begin with, to build on.
After all, if there is ever a two state solution reached, it will have to be roughly along these lines anyway, the pre-1967 borders.
Click to expand...

This is the very reason that the notion of this being the causus belli is absurd ... thevery thing these coutnries claim to be fighting against Israel for could have been delivered on a silver platter decades ago.

The truth is, no Arab naiton wants a Palestinian State, and in most countries, the PAlestinians are seen as threats to the regime (expelled from Jordan, Lebanon, Kuwait to name a few). If ever Israel disappeared from the map, NO palesitnian country would emerge. Egypt and Syria, to say nothing of Jordan, would lay claim to the land.
 
BELFAST

BELFAST

I cannot see a 2 state solution working at the time.
You just end up with 2 states that hate each other and are going to go to war on each other sooner or later.
 

oudi14

I tend to agree with you, that the other Arabs didn't [and maybe still don't] want a Palestinian state. But they should have been a bit more altruistic. I don't see the Palestinians being a threat to other Arabs if they are trying to build their own state, instead of rotting in those wretched refugee camps for all those years. You might at least butterfly away the Jordanian civil war of September 1970.

As for Israel and Palestine going to war, yeah probably, but Israel had to fight numerous wars in those days anyway. One more enemy, probably a weak one militarily, maybe wouldn't have made that much difference.
Dahveed323 said:
This is the very reason that the notion of this being the causus belli is absurd ... thevery thing these coutnries claim to be fighting against Israel for could have been delivered on a silver platter decades ago.

The truth is, no Arab naiton wants a Palestinian State, and in most countries, the PAlestinians are seen as threats to the regime (expelled from Jordan, Lebanon, Kuwait to name a few). If ever Israel disappeared from the map, NO palesitnian country would emerge. Egypt and Syria, to say nothing of Jordan, would lay claim to the land.
Click to expand...
 
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