Turtledove's 'Worldwar': Specific terms of the Peace of Cairo

[Historyman 14]

What about Mexico? Can't say the US would what the Race right on them. Maybe give northern Mexico to the Race and set up an Southern Mexico? At least it gives them a southern ally.

And places like China....it might just be me, but was they any cultural fusion between human and Race?

 

[TR1]

What about Mexico? Can't say the US would what the Race right on them. Maybe give northern Mexico to the Race and set up an Southern Mexico? At least it gives them a southern ally.

Didn't matter what the US wanted. The Race held Mexico in its entirety. The US wasn't in the position to come up with puppet states in Mexico. It got the Race out of Canada, Cuba, the DR and Haiti.

And places like China....it might just be me, but was they any cultural fusion between human and Race?

The Race adopted monogamy, Humans shave their heads. It didn't seem to get deeper than that. Not sure what that question as to do with China.

 

[Historyman 14]

The Race adopted monogamy, Humans shave their heads. It didn't seem to get deeper than that. Not sure what that question as to do with China.

With just China, and India allow, the Race has some of the largest human population and land mass. And then you have the Middle East,Australia, most of South America, Africa, Poland, Spain. That is a ton of space and human population to rule over till the 60s.

 

[bguy]

I'd really have liked to see what Hitler's last years in power before he died looked like.

I kind of wonder if Hitler actually survived through the Peace of Cairo. As is the sequence of events involving Nazi Germany at the Peace of Cairo really doesn't make sense. The Nazis unilaterally break off the peace negotiations, attempt to launch a nuclear sneak attack on the Race in Poland, announce to the Race that they have launched the attack and when it inexplicably fails they... change their minds and make peace after all. That really doesn't seem consistent with how Hitler operated. I would have expected the Nazis to attack whether their nuclear bomb in Lodz went off or not. (Or if Hitler just really, really wanted to open his sneak attack with a nuclear blast then to resume the negotiations just until Germany's next nuclear bomb was ready and then launch the attack at that point.) The Nazis making a peace agreement that holds for 20 years is probably the single most ASB event in the entire series. The end of the book makes a lot of more sense if in the aftermath of the failed nuclear attack on Lodz, someone in the Nazi government (Goering maybe) who realizes that trying to fight the nuclear armed Race all by itself is a really bad idea, arranges for Hitler to have a conveniently timed "heart attack", and then the surviving Nazi government quickly makes peace.

 

[Accurateworldwar]

I kind of wonder if Hitler actually survived through the Peace of Cairo. As is the sequence of events involving Nazi Germany at the Peace of Cairo really doesn't make sense. The Nazis unilaterally break off the peace negotiations, attempt to launch a nuclear sneak attack on the Race in Poland, announce to the Race that they have launched the attack and when it inexplicably fails they... change their minds and make peace after all. That really doesn't seem consistent with how Hitler operated. I would have expected the Nazis to attack whether their nuclear bomb in Lodz went off or not. (Or if Hitler just really, really wanted to open his sneak attack with a nuclear blast then to resume the negotiations just until Germany's next nuclear bomb was ready and then launch the attack at that point.) The Nazis making a peace agreement that holds for 20 years is probably the single most ASB event in the entire series. The end of the book makes a lot of more sense if in the aftermath of the failed nuclear attack on Lodz, someone in the Nazi government (Goering maybe) who realizes that trying to fight the nuclear armed Race all by itself is a really bad idea, arranges for Hitler to have a conveniently timed "heart attack", and then the surviving Nazi government quickly makes peace.

I thought that it was mentioned that Hitler died in the fifties, though.

 

[The Gunslinger]

I very much doubt Japan would have kept Indochina over Korea. 'A dagger pointed at the heart of Japan' and all that.

 

[Dominic]

I very much doubt Japan would have kept Indochina over Korea. 'A dagger pointed at the heart of Japan' and all that.

Korea is also vastly more useful industrially, as well as defensible. IMO Japan would have if it had to swapped not only Indochina but big chunks of Indonesia in order to get Korea back. The whole Indochina thing was a mess, Malaya is also more useful and defensible than it given that it is functionally almost an island.

 

[Faeelin]

I very much doubt Japan would have kept Indochina over Korea. 'A dagger pointed at the heart of Japan' and all that.

Why does Japan get to decide what it gets? Surely the Race could figure that Korea is useful for that reason?

 

[Thande]

Why does Japan get to decide what it gets?

Exactly. I always thought the maps in the Colonisation books were well weird and possibly just the result of vague instructions from Turtledove. Based on what happens in the books, Japan should just have the Home Islands, unless one takes the view that the Race are so careless about islands that they might be able to hang on to Taiwan, East Indies and the Philippines (though that obviously opens its own can of worms with the US) just because the Race didn't notice - but that doesn't really fit with how they gradually change their views over the series (for example seeing Hawaii as a viable nuclear target). But Japan certainly shouldn't keep any mainland Asian territories like Indochina or Korea.

 

[bguy]

I thought that it was mentioned that Hitler died in the fifties, though.

Hmmm. You may be right. I tried flipping through the books and while I didn't find any reference to when Hitler died, I did find a conversation where the Race's Ambassador to Germany described meeting Hitler, so he obviously lived at least long enough to see the Race establish an embassy in Germany.

 

[Trotsky]

I thought Hitler's death was mentioned in the second book when Drucker was musing about how Goebbels might have another go at the succession as he had when Hitler had passed.

 

[Ilúphatar]

The Nazis making a peace agreement that holds for 20 years is probably the single most ASB event in the entire series.

Perhaps faced with a real and evident existential threat, and having lost a huge chunk of the Wehrmacht both to the Soviets and the Race, common sense broke out across Nazi Germany. Maybe they only had the troops left to garrison their territories in Western Europe and the Balkans, and even Hitler could see that there was no chance of immediately starting another war.

Though how they kept their economy afloat without causing a huge revolt across Europe beats me.

I very much doubt Japan would have kept Indochina over Korea. 'A dagger pointed at the heart of Japan' and all that.

That was my thinking too. Given the opportunity to exchange the two, it would be reasonable for Japan to do so. There are three possibilities:

1) The Race are so ideologically set on a total conquest of Earth that they utterly refuse to alter territorial boundaries outside of warfare.
2) The Race are in fact willing to negotiate such exchanges, but value Korea more (perhaps for industry, perhaps for its strategic location in a any conflict with Japan or the USSR) than Indochina.
3) The Japanese value Indochina more highly than Korea for its strategic location, i.e. providing a buffer from Race air attacks on Japanese territories in the Pacific.

There is also the possibility that the mapmaker was wrong to present Indochina as Japanese (to my knowledge its status is never referenced in the text) and that Japan in fact has neither Korea nor Indochina.

Malaya is also more useful and defensible than it given that it is functionally almost an island.

Quite. Though the airpower of the Race could be enough (at least at the time of the first Race landings) to breach any defences of the neck of the Malay Peninsular.

On the topic of Malaya, I wonder what the fate of Singapore was? It seems likely that the Japanese retained it, as neither the British nor the Race see to have had the ability to take it.

Surely the Race could figure that Korea is useful for that reason?

Indeed. Though I seem to recall them complaining about how unsuited human factories are for the manufacture of Race technology.

unless one takes the view that the Race are so careless about islands that they might be able to hang on to Taiwan, East Indies and the Philippines

I think this is actually the case. The Race struggle to comprehend the importance of islands, and would not adapt well to the new reality even after their heavy defeat in England and the discovery of two powerful island powers (Britain and Japan). My view is that, given their complete lack of any form of naval commerce or military force, they simply see no value in demanding the islands nor see the threat of leaving them in Japanese hands.

though that obviously opens its own can of worms with the US

The wiki states: 'Despite its own grudges against Japan, the United States provided support to the postwar Japanese Empire to have a buffer between the Race and American interests in the Pacific, and to prevent the Japanese from turning to the Soviet Union or the Race.' (http://turtledove.wikia.com/wiki/Japan_(Worldwar)#Japan_in_Worldwar).

I take this to mean that the US simply didn't see the value in demanding its former territories from the Race.

Why couldn't the race seize Ceylon? It's far from Britain, has no heavy weapons...

There was a rather significant British military base on the island. It also seems likely that the remnants of British forces in India would have withdrawn to the island after the fall of the mainland. It's still certainly possible that the Race took it, but it's not a given.

 

[Ilúphatar]

I have taken the liberty of creating what may be a slightly more accurate map of the Peace of Cairo:

Dark Blue = The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and its territories
Light Blue = Dominions of the British Commonwealth
Dark Green = The United States of America
Light Green = States under the protection/administration/influence of the US*
Dark Purple = Greater German Reich
Light Purple = States under the protection/administration/influence/occupation of or allied with Germany
Red = The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and associated territories**
Yellow = The Empire of Japan and occupied territories
Black = Colonies of the Race

There are a few points here I ought to point out:

1) The British have taken over administration of every island colony or territory of France, Denmark, Spain, Portugal, Norway and the Netherlands in the Atlantic, Carribbean, Indian Ocean and Pacific. They have also occupied Svalbard, the Faroe Islands, Madagascar (it may be more likely here that the Vichy French simply accepted British protection), the Balearic Islands and Tierra del Fuego. Gibraltar, Malta, Cyprus, Ceylon, and all other island British territories have been retained. Tasmania is now under the direct administration of London, and either it or New Zealand hosts an Australian government-in-exile. Ireland remains a Dominion.

2) The United States jointly administers Greenland and Iceland with Canada. They have maintained all their island territories except for those lost to Japan before the arrival of the Race. Cuba, the Dominican Republic and Haiti are under American protection and influence. The USA has also occupied most of the island territories of the Latin American countries.

3) Germany has only annexed Luxembourg, Alsace-Lorraine, South Tyrol, Slovenia and Istria. Elsewhere in Europe, except for the British Isles, Race colonies and USSR, 'German' territory belongs to various puppet states or allied nations. These include formerly neutral Switzerland, Sweden, Liechtenstein, Monaco, the Vatican and San Marino. Zara has been annexed to the Independent State of Croatia. Albania is no longer an Italian territory. Greater Bulgaria now includes all of formerly Turkish Thrace, including Constantinople. Germany retains East Prussia - it is not now part of Race-held Poland.

4) The USSR retains occupation of Tannu Tuva (they probably annexed it) and the Baltic States (them too). They maintain a border with German East Prussia. Bessarabia remains Romanian. Karelia and Petsamo remain Finnish.

5) Japan does not have Indochina, but does retain every island it held, including Hainan, Jeju and the former American territories. Japan has occupied all of New Guinea and the Guadacanal. Its influence in Vich French Madagascar had been displaced by the British.

6) The Race hold very few islands - only those close to shore with negligible population or poor development have been claimed. Andorra is shown as a Race colony, though its status is unknown in the novel. The Race do not hold Turkish Thrace, which has been absorbed into Greater Bulgaria.

Thoughts?

*Canada really ought to be in this category, but as it is also a member of the Commonwealth, it is shown in light blue
**We are not told about the fate of Tannu Tuva, though it is safe to assume (or perhaps confirm?) that the Baltic States were annexed to the USSR post-war

 

[Accurateworldwar]

snip

The only thing I see wrong with it is that Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were explicitly mentioned to not have a border.

 

[cortz#9]

The only thing I see wrong with it is that Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were explicitly mentioned to not have a border.

Maybe give the Race the a strip of land connecting northern Poland to the Northern Sea?

 

[Mitro]

Ireland remains a Dominion.

Why? Granted my knowledge of Irish history is pretty limited, but it looks like you can argue they stopped being a dominion when the Constitution of Ireland was adopted in 1937, which is years before WWII even began. While the Republic of Ireland Act 1948 would remove the last vestiges of British control, even I doubt they would turn the clock back that far once the Race arrived. Granted wanting a good relationship with Britain might come in handy when alien invaders are sitting on Europe, but if they wanted protection you would think Ireland would cuddle up with the US or the Germans.

 

[Nivek]

Why couldn't the race seize Ceylon? It's far from Britain, has no heavy weapons...

They don't care that much about islands and maybe got busy,.

 

[Ilúphatar]

The only thing I see wrong with it is that Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were explicitly mentioned to not have a border.

Were they? All I recall is that they wanted a 'buffer state', i.e. Poland, which doesn't necessarily preclude a land border. Particularly a land border between a exclave of Germany and the USSR, which hardly poses an enormous military threat.

you can argue they stopped being a dominion when the Constitution of Ireland was adopted in 1937

You can indeed argue that. You can also very easily argue that it was indeed the Republic of Ireland Act 1948 that severed the last remaining ties. I tend towards the latter option personally, and, in a world of such instability, it wouldn't surprise me if Ireland would bind themselves back towards British protection as soon as possible, regardless of the attitude of Irish Nationalists. And remember, in the novels, Britain (somehow, the reason is never explained) gravitates towards right-wing nationalism and eases tensions with Germany. A government like that would be hostile to any Irish move towards republicanism, and might be willing to use threats of force.

Maybe give the Race the a strip of land connecting northern Poland to the Northern Sea?

So, basically a revived Poland-Lithuania? That would be an interesting dynamic.

 

[TR1]

1) Ireland is explicitly stated to be an independent country in Second Contact. Northern Ireland is part of the UK.

2) You have Newfoundland in deep blue, suggesting it's directly part of UK. It was part of Canada in Colonization.

 

[Ilúphatar]

1) Ireland is explicitly stated to be an independent country in Second Contact. Northern Ireland is part of the UK.

2) You have Newfoundland in deep blue, suggesting it's directly part of UK. It was part of Canada in Colonization.

1) All the Dominions were technically independent countries, they were merely also member states of the British Commonwealth; enjoyed unofficial military alliance with the UK and each other; and acknowledge the British monarch as Head of State. So it would be possible for Ireland to truthfully be regarded as an independent country while still having ties to Britain.

2) The map I made was how I envisaged the world just a month or two after the Peace of Cairo (giving the powers enough time to occupy the remnants of other countries). Newfoundland was not ceded to Canada until 1949 IOTL, so Britain would realistically still hold sovereignty over Newfoundland at this time (1944). Also, I'm afraid I lack the Colonisation series - was it explicitly stated that Newfoundland was part of Canada, or is the (probably inaccurate) map the source?