A lot of teams use multiple planes to ship personal between cities just so this doesn't happen. At least, that's what they do in the NFL, they have some backup and starters mixed on two planes so of one goes down, the team still has enough players where the team still can start a respectable lineup. Even if only half the team died, I still would think the NLCS would be cancelled.
TLI3W: MLB's 1992 Black October in Atlanta (2.0)
- Thread starter politicalnomad
- Start date
The next segments
Usertron-In the wake of a dsaster of this magnitude, if Van Slyke and Wakefield were added to the Braves as a combined roster, the ALCS champion isn't going to protest-they'd get bleeping steamrolled in a backlash of tsunamic proportions, no matter what the competitive situation. The storyline of the survivors forging ahead, carrying the torch for their dead teammmates is a powerful one. If this happens, the Series becomes a celebration of baseball more than anything else.
At the same time, I'm leaning towards the most conventional option, with the Braves winning the NLCS merely having flown down on an MD-88 rather than a 737 (the inverse timeline of this one is where the Braves plane suffers an uncontrolled engine failure on takeoff).
Look for Part III-City of Mourning on Sunday, Part IV-World Surrealies on Monday, and Part V: A New Beginning on Wednesday.
Usertron-In the wake of a dsaster of this magnitude, if Van Slyke and Wakefield were added to the Braves as a combined roster, the ALCS champion isn't going to protest-they'd get bleeping steamrolled in a backlash of tsunamic proportions, no matter what the competitive situation. The storyline of the survivors forging ahead, carrying the torch for their dead teammmates is a powerful one. If this happens, the Series becomes a celebration of baseball more than anything else.
At the same time, I'm leaning towards the most conventional option, with the Braves winning the NLCS merely having flown down on an MD-88 rather than a 737 (the inverse timeline of this one is where the Braves plane suffers an uncontrolled engine failure on takeoff).
Look for Part III-City of Mourning on Sunday, Part IV-World Surrealies on Monday, and Part V: A New Beginning on Wednesday.
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usertron2020
Donor
Well, I'm 99% sure the A's at least DID fly together in the flight they took the night after the A's were defeated. It was in a book about the 1992 Pirates' and A's season.
They were quite specific as the A's Manager Tony La Russa, who had always dreamed of managing against his friend Jim Leyland in the World Series, was bitterly disappointed when told that the Braves won (they were airborne with an unreliable radio as their only source of information). La Russa had to wait to get to the airport to find out HOW the Braves won. He found that the Pirates beating Brian R. Hunter, "the guy you're really afraid of", only to lose to a career minor leaguer like Francisco Cabrera, really rubbed salt in the wounds. Shades of Bucky Dent, but without the corked bats.
Oh, I agree. It's just that you have to spot two players from the American League as well.
What? The Braves are in the American League now? When did this become an ASB thread?
Roger Clemens as Wakefield opposing number? Hey, Wakefield in that October was PITCHING like Roger Clemens!
Who would be an opposing number for Van Slyke from the American League?
Rationally, it'd have to be someone from the A's. I'd go with Stewart alongside Wakefield and Rickey Henderson alongside Van Slyke - which would be ironic because Henderson would end up on Toronto OTL in '93.
For that matter, you would think that both Wakefield AND Van Slyke would be major league headcases after this tragedy. Probably better to have the Blue Jays and Braves be allowed to play as is.
Agreed, they'll be throwing out the first pitch but it's not likely they'd feel like playing. Look at how the spring training boating accident impacted some of the Indians' pitchers in '1993.
Since Van Slyke and Wakefield are under contract to the Pittsburgh Pirates, I believe it is impossible for them to play for another team in 1992. The only feasible way for the Pirates to replace their roster for the rest of the NLCS is to bring up their AAA squad and its manager (highly unlikely)
If Van Slyke and Wakefield are mentally unable to play baseball, that's it. The Braves will have to be declared National League champions.
If Van Slyke and Wakefield are mentally unable to play baseball, that's it. The Braves will have to be declared National League champions.
usertron2020
Donor
Dave Stewart addresses the imbalance of the Brave's now "Four Aces", or "Three Aces" if Smoltz becomes the closer (he did a great job as one in his career as a closer). And he gets his World Series ring along with Dave Winfield. Ricky Henderson doesn't quite have Van Slyke's bat by 1992, but oh that speed.
It's an imponderable.
Yeah, that was the Indians case I was talking about. And I was wrong: Only two of the boaters were killed, as Bob Ojeda survived, though grievously wounded on his scalp/skull. His career never recovered. Worse, they lost Tim Crews as their chief middle reliever and Steve Olin as their closer.
Legally, perhaps. But if Pittsburg ownership is willing to wave the restrictions, Wakefield and Van Slyke and the Commissioner said yes, and MLB be willing to pay for their pro-rated salaries, I would imagine fan pressure would make the idea irresistible.
Plus you could be killing Pirates baseball otherwise.
When you factor in the competition of the Steelers, Penguins, whatever NBA team they haveNo need to pile humiliation on top of tragedy.
Wakefield had much less time in on the Pirates' major league level team than Van Slyke. OTOH, in his first season in 1992 he became an absolute rock star, with Jim Leyland in particular taking him under his wing (a knuckle-baller winning all those games will do that to a manager). So with Leyland killed the rookie sensation Wakefield could be as crushed as the veteran Van Slyke.
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Good start..one if those.nightmare situations most fans have thought about..keep going
III-City of Mourning
Narrator: Narrator: The same fans who had fallen asleep joyous at the Pirates Game 5 stomping of the Braves awoke Monday morning to the news that the Pirates plane had crashed in Atlanta, and everyone except Tim Wakefield and Andy Van Slyke had died.......
Gene Collier: What you have to understand about Pittsburgh; it's not so much a major city so much as America's Largest Small Town; and the Pirates, Penguins, and Steelers are talked about in much the same way as places talk about their high school football teams. They're truly treated like our friends and neighbors here. When the city awoke at various times of the morning and learned the fate of the team, it was our worst nightmare.
Andy Van Slyke: They were all gone, and I didn't know what to do except go around to the families and grieve with them. There was a lot of handholding and soul searching for months on my part. Why had Tim and I survived when everyone else had died? Why? It was made even more difficult that there wasn't even an apparent cause for years.
At the same time, I felt the responsibility to be the guy to represent the franchise and city and lead us through one of our darkest hours. Pittsburgh had always been good to me, and I felt that I owed the city leadership now.
Tim Wakefield: I was so shocked that Tom Glavine later told me that I said less than 100 words the first two days after the crash, and it took me almost a week to feel good enough to return to Pittsburgh. It's just not something you expect to deal with in your rookie season.
Mayor Tom Murphy: A lot of people took work off; those that did come in were shellshocked and in tears. We all knew them in some way, and what had been a case of baseball fever had crashed into extreme sorrow. It was just numbness and sadness all around.
Fred Rogers (Mr. Rogers): It hit the kids here hardest of all; the young boys here all were huge Pirates fans, and explaining what had happened, and why they wouldn't be seeing their favorite players again was gutwrenching. Having lived in Western Pennsylvania all my life, I was deeply saddened too.
(cuts to a special episode of Mr. Rogers neighborhood filmed exclusively for the Western Pennsylvania market)
Mr. Rogers: "It's okay to feel sad, even adults like me feel sad. It's okay to talk about our feelings about what's happened. But it's also important to think about the good memories we all have about the Pirates, and why we liked them so much."
Joe Starkey: The city took that to heart; a week after the crash, they opened up Three Rivers, and replayed Game 5 on the Jumbotron, and it was a packed house. I think it was better that they had gone out as winners.
All of the players funerals were shown on local TV here, and a lot of people watched all of them. The city was deeply in mourning for it's baseball team, and out of the tragedy, you saw signs that declared "We Are Pittsburgh. We Are Family."
Narrator: 9 days after the crash, a public memorial service was held at Three Rivers Stadium; a crowd of 150,000 showed up to honor their team, as millions watched the service on TV.
(cuts to the Public Memorial Service)
Andy Van Slyke: "They were the best teammates a guy could have ever asked for, and they will be missed beyond words that I can express. Our city, our league, and myself are worse off for their loss. We must remember their legacy and spirit as we grieve the tragedy that has happened and begin to continue on-and each and every one on that plane would want us to keep moving forward, and although they are no longer here on earth with us, they will remain in our hearts, minds, and memories forever."
Tom Murphy: That was the beginning of the healing process here, and things slowly began to get back to normal.....the Penguins returned and played their first game in almost two weeks, and the Steelers played a few days after, though as baseball resumed elsewhere things were still jarring as we watched on TV. It took time.
As Pittsburgh mourned, the baseball world slowly prepared to move on amidst the surreality that the tragedy had created.
Narrator: Narrator: The same fans who had fallen asleep joyous at the Pirates Game 5 stomping of the Braves awoke Monday morning to the news that the Pirates plane had crashed in Atlanta, and everyone except Tim Wakefield and Andy Van Slyke had died.......
Gene Collier: What you have to understand about Pittsburgh; it's not so much a major city so much as America's Largest Small Town; and the Pirates, Penguins, and Steelers are talked about in much the same way as places talk about their high school football teams. They're truly treated like our friends and neighbors here. When the city awoke at various times of the morning and learned the fate of the team, it was our worst nightmare.
Andy Van Slyke: They were all gone, and I didn't know what to do except go around to the families and grieve with them. There was a lot of handholding and soul searching for months on my part. Why had Tim and I survived when everyone else had died? Why? It was made even more difficult that there wasn't even an apparent cause for years.
At the same time, I felt the responsibility to be the guy to represent the franchise and city and lead us through one of our darkest hours. Pittsburgh had always been good to me, and I felt that I owed the city leadership now.
Tim Wakefield: I was so shocked that Tom Glavine later told me that I said less than 100 words the first two days after the crash, and it took me almost a week to feel good enough to return to Pittsburgh. It's just not something you expect to deal with in your rookie season.
Mayor Tom Murphy: A lot of people took work off; those that did come in were shellshocked and in tears. We all knew them in some way, and what had been a case of baseball fever had crashed into extreme sorrow. It was just numbness and sadness all around.
Fred Rogers (Mr. Rogers): It hit the kids here hardest of all; the young boys here all were huge Pirates fans, and explaining what had happened, and why they wouldn't be seeing their favorite players again was gutwrenching. Having lived in Western Pennsylvania all my life, I was deeply saddened too.
(cuts to a special episode of Mr. Rogers neighborhood filmed exclusively for the Western Pennsylvania market)
Mr. Rogers: "It's okay to feel sad, even adults like me feel sad. It's okay to talk about our feelings about what's happened. But it's also important to think about the good memories we all have about the Pirates, and why we liked them so much."
Joe Starkey: The city took that to heart; a week after the crash, they opened up Three Rivers, and replayed Game 5 on the Jumbotron, and it was a packed house. I think it was better that they had gone out as winners.
All of the players funerals were shown on local TV here, and a lot of people watched all of them. The city was deeply in mourning for it's baseball team, and out of the tragedy, you saw signs that declared "We Are Pittsburgh. We Are Family."
Narrator: 9 days after the crash, a public memorial service was held at Three Rivers Stadium; a crowd of 150,000 showed up to honor their team, as millions watched the service on TV.
(cuts to the Public Memorial Service)
Andy Van Slyke: "They were the best teammates a guy could have ever asked for, and they will be missed beyond words that I can express. Our city, our league, and myself are worse off for their loss. We must remember their legacy and spirit as we grieve the tragedy that has happened and begin to continue on-and each and every one on that plane would want us to keep moving forward, and although they are no longer here on earth with us, they will remain in our hearts, minds, and memories forever."
Tom Murphy: That was the beginning of the healing process here, and things slowly began to get back to normal.....the Penguins returned and played their first game in almost two weeks, and the Steelers played a few days after, though as baseball resumed elsewhere things were still jarring as we watched on TV. It took time.
As Pittsburgh mourned, the baseball world slowly prepared to move on amidst the surreality that the tragedy had created.
Fun Fact of the Day
Andy Van Slyke apparently wrote a novel in which this exact thing happened....to the Chicago Cubs. I didn't know this before starting this up again, but what a coincidence......
Andy Van Slyke apparently wrote a novel in which this exact thing happened....to the Chicago Cubs. I didn't know this before starting this up again, but what a coincidence......
Orville_third
Banned
Thanks to the remarks of another poster in another thread
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=11067260&postcount=27
I found out that the MLB has contingency plans for this sort of thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disaster_draft
http://espn.go.com/gen/s/2001/0328/1163463.html
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=11067260&postcount=27
I found out that the MLB has contingency plans for this sort of thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disaster_draft
http://espn.go.com/gen/s/2001/0328/1163463.html
usertron2020
Donor
Based on my reading of the Disaster Draft Rules, in the event of Catastrophic Loss of virtually the entire team, this will force an extreme re-alignment if MLB wants to get past this tragedy.
Problem: MLB HAS no true commissioner at this time, and the temptation by Bud Selig, the still reigning owner of the Milwaukee Brewers to "protect" the surviving teams, could leave the Pirates to being royally screwed.
Based on my reading of the Disaster Draft, both its de jure and de facto understandings require a commissioner with true independent judgement. A small to moderate loss is one thing, but unless MLB (the other owners) have no problem profiting from this tragedy and turning the 111 year old Pirates into a AAA (or even AA) MLB franchise (and basically killing the team for a generation or more, regardless of owner support (1)), with near-total loss this will require extra-ordinary measures.
1) If there's one thing MLB doesn't want to threaten, its their precious (my precious) labor exemption, and this could piss off Congress so much that they can threaten to strip it. After all, even without the exemption with so many teams developed by now there's only so many places that a major league franchise can go and make $$$.
By my reading you could expect to see (with threatened lawsuits by the Pirate's ownership, its not like they have anything to lose) a Disaster Draft with instead of the other teams providing five specific players from their 40 man roster (the AAA Option) and limited to one player from each position-and more restrictions on catchers-you could see the Pirates free to take essentially an "All-Star Team". (2)
2) Restricted by the Major League Baseball Players Association's demands/requests, No Trade Clauses, a one-two-three "Franchise Player" restriction, and the fact that unlike an Expansion Draft there's no need to create a minor league system, as the Pirates' is unaffected by this tragedy. Not to mention that an All-Star Team roster will shatter the Pirates' payroll budget, not even taking into consideration that the Pirates were going to do a large scale payroll dump in the next two years anyway. (3)
3) OTOH, they could consider trading away all the budget busters away to either their original teams or to teams that the players had always wanted to play for but never got the chance to. (4) So the Pirates could wind up with a lot of younger, cheaper players that go a long way towards restoring the organization for years to come.
This might even be an idea acceptable to MLB as a whole.4) So, imagine how the fans (and for that matter, the owners) react to the sight of all those "local heroes" coming home professionally for the first time ever without having to pay the big $$$ after waiting years for them to go free agent, AND praying that they choose hearth and home over $$$.
Orville, isn't there anyway you can blame all this on US Imperialism?
III.5: Getting Back To Normal
With the blessings of the two surviving Pirates, the ALCS resumed the day after the public memorial in Pittsburgh. In an elaborate pre-game ceremony, the 1992 Pittsburgh Pirates are honored in Oakland-as the starting lineups are announced for each team, they walk onto the field holding the jersey of their opposite number from Pittsburgh.
Having had time to reset their rotations, Game 5 ends up as a classic pitching duel between Dave Stewart and Jack Morris, with each pitching a scoreless 8 innings; in the top of the ninth, Roberto Alomar triples and then is brought home on a sacrifice fly by John Olerud. In the bottom of the 9th Rubin Sierra singles and Mark McGuire wins the game on a monster walk-off shot to left. Baseball is back, at least in a very somber environment.
Two days later, the series moves to Toronto, as Bob Welch faces David Cone. In the bottom of the third, the Jays load the bases, and then Welch hangs a fastball over the plate to Joe Carter, who hits it all the way to Niagara Falls. Despite a valiant comeback effort, the Jays triumph 5-3, sending them to the 1992 World Series.
As the Jays and As are playing the ALCS, at league offices, they are beginning to sort through what to do about the NLCS and how to best rebuild the Pirates. In secret discussions with Andy Van Slyke and Tim Wakefield, it is offered that they would be allowed to play as part of a combined National League squad, given that nobody won the NLCS and the Pirates could not continue.
Andy Van Slyke: Tim and I talked it over for a day or two, the pros and cons, and where we were mentally and how such a thing would work. We decided that it simply wouldn't work. Neither of us felt ready to return, and we felt that our presence would have been a distraction to the Braves. We politely declined.
Just before Game 6 in Toronto, at a press conference, Vincent announced:
Fay Vincent: "The NLCS cannot not be concluded due to the fact that the Pirates are unable to continue as a team for the rest of the 1992 Postseason. Therefore the Atlanta Braves will represent the NL, and both teams will be declared as League Champions."
Peter Gammons: "Behind the scenes, determining what to do about rebuilding the Pirates resulted in a heated debate. The first two things decided were the least controversial, as neither involved players currently under contract. The Pirates would be awarded the 1st, 3rd, and 5th overall picks in the 1993 draft in addition to their existing picks, in 1994 they would get the 2nd and 4th picks, and in 1995 the 3rd and 6th picks.
The other measure put in place with relatively little pushback was that the Pirates alone would have a special 14 day window to negotiate with and sign any free agents they wanted in 1993, a 7 day window in 1994, and a 4 day window in 1995.
At the same time, the plan for a Rebuilding Draft was quietly devolving into a mess......"
With the blessings of the two surviving Pirates, the ALCS resumed the day after the public memorial in Pittsburgh. In an elaborate pre-game ceremony, the 1992 Pittsburgh Pirates are honored in Oakland-as the starting lineups are announced for each team, they walk onto the field holding the jersey of their opposite number from Pittsburgh.
Having had time to reset their rotations, Game 5 ends up as a classic pitching duel between Dave Stewart and Jack Morris, with each pitching a scoreless 8 innings; in the top of the ninth, Roberto Alomar triples and then is brought home on a sacrifice fly by John Olerud. In the bottom of the 9th Rubin Sierra singles and Mark McGuire wins the game on a monster walk-off shot to left. Baseball is back, at least in a very somber environment.
Two days later, the series moves to Toronto, as Bob Welch faces David Cone. In the bottom of the third, the Jays load the bases, and then Welch hangs a fastball over the plate to Joe Carter, who hits it all the way to Niagara Falls. Despite a valiant comeback effort, the Jays triumph 5-3, sending them to the 1992 World Series.
As the Jays and As are playing the ALCS, at league offices, they are beginning to sort through what to do about the NLCS and how to best rebuild the Pirates. In secret discussions with Andy Van Slyke and Tim Wakefield, it is offered that they would be allowed to play as part of a combined National League squad, given that nobody won the NLCS and the Pirates could not continue.
Andy Van Slyke: Tim and I talked it over for a day or two, the pros and cons, and where we were mentally and how such a thing would work. We decided that it simply wouldn't work. Neither of us felt ready to return, and we felt that our presence would have been a distraction to the Braves. We politely declined.
Just before Game 6 in Toronto, at a press conference, Vincent announced:
Fay Vincent: "The NLCS cannot not be concluded due to the fact that the Pirates are unable to continue as a team for the rest of the 1992 Postseason. Therefore the Atlanta Braves will represent the NL, and both teams will be declared as League Champions."
Peter Gammons: "Behind the scenes, determining what to do about rebuilding the Pirates resulted in a heated debate. The first two things decided were the least controversial, as neither involved players currently under contract. The Pirates would be awarded the 1st, 3rd, and 5th overall picks in the 1993 draft in addition to their existing picks, in 1994 they would get the 2nd and 4th picks, and in 1995 the 3rd and 6th picks.
The other measure put in place with relatively little pushback was that the Pirates alone would have a special 14 day window to negotiate with and sign any free agents they wanted in 1993, a 7 day window in 1994, and a 4 day window in 1995.
At the same time, the plan for a Rebuilding Draft was quietly devolving into a mess......"
usertron2020
Donor
Fay Vincent was still there? What's the difference between a Disaster Draft and a Rebuilding Draft? I suspect not having Fay Vincent (for long?) is going to cause that "mess".
ITTL, Vincent had planned to leave at the end of the 1992 season rather than September.
Rebuilding Draft is what I've decided to call the Disaster Draft; somehow I find that it carries a more positive feel to it.
An apology
I know this hasn't gone on time as planned, but all of a sudden, I'm having to manage a relocation to Nationals/Orioles country to take a great new (stable/normal!) job, so this will resume as soon as I've got the new apartment lined up.
I know this hasn't gone on time as planned, but all of a sudden, I'm having to manage a relocation to Nationals/Orioles country to take a great new (stable/normal!) job, so this will resume as soon as I've got the new apartment lined up.
So now you're in Maryland, more excatly, the area of baltimore-dc? nice.
My new office will be in DC; I narrowly avoided being assigned to San Francisco with it's surrealistically insane housing market, thank God. I'm debating where to live but for tax reasons am leaning towards Arlington or Alexandria.
Restart Tomorrow Night
I appear to have found a place in NoVA, so we shall recommence the show tomorrow night with a short update.
I appear to have found a place in NoVA, so we shall recommence the show tomorrow night with a short update.