TLC1 - 53 States Timeline
- Thread starter Alcuin
- Start date
You're right of course. I wracked my brains for an appropriate 53rd state once I'd chosen the title. I'd forgotten I'd done that. I should have changed that and made Northern Ireland the 53rd state.
More historical precedence for the Dominican Republic to request statehood; they did so twice and were rejected both times. With the race problems in the 1960's in OTL and this alternate both, I don't think a sovereign nation with a black majority would willingly submit itself to being part of a country where racial equality is still being hammered out in law and in fact.
I'm surprised Guam and the Marianas haven't attempted a statehood bid.
In OTL 2007 Guam and the Northern Marianas combined are about halfway to beating Wyoming in population, which would satisfy the population requirement. In an ATL with different cultural and strategic pressures (immigration, increased military presence) they might be able to beat that number. The population density might be pretty high but supportable with a strong service-based economy (think Singapore or Hong Kong).
Consider this: both sites are close to the equator, and with a lot of uninhabited ocean to the east, which makes them ideally suited for launch facilities that take the maximum advantage of the angular momentum of the Earth's rotation. Or if you're going that route, that angular momentum can also be used to stabilize a space elevator or tether. For that matter, launching an Orion-type spaceship at sea is considerably less problematic than launching from a land-based platform. Given the bigger role space exploration is playing in this TL, and assuming that Hawaii is just as insistent upon protecting its natural environment in this TL as in OTL, both would be good sites for the USA to develop space infrastructure. And with that would come additional population and other infrastructure (schools, banks, hospitals, etc.) that would make such a state viable.
Alcuin
Banned
I had Haiti apply for Statehood but I just couldn't imagine the US accepting. The Dominican Republic wasn't going to apply because it had Che Guevara as its evil repressive dictator.
Guam and the Marianas don't have the population. Nor does DC for that matter but ...
... I also loved the idea of moving the whole panoply of Government to Kansas City, Mo.Alcuin
Banned
Damn! I wish I'd thought of that... in fact I DID think of that for the WSA, hence the launch site in Kourou but I wish I'd had the USA think of it as well.
Hey, there's still time for the USA to do it...Guam/TNMI are still US possessions and it's not like there's a patent on the laws of physics after all.
Hell, the Johnny Frummers in Vanuatu would probably love for the US to come in and take them to the Moon.
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I had Haiti apply for Statehood but I just couldn't imagine the US accepting. The Dominican Republic wasn't going to apply because it had Che Guevara as its evil repressive dictator.
Guam and the Marianas don't have the population. Nor does DC for that matter but ...
DC is ahead of the least populous current state (Wyoming) which is all the Constitution requires. In fact, it's closing in on the next least-populous state after that (Vermont). So that requirement for statehood is met. If the new state annexes Montgomery County in Maryland and Fairfax County in Virginia (very likely, since a good deal of the people who actually work in DC live in those two places) they're more than in the running.
As for alternate locations for the government, Kansas City or St. Louis would be logical as they're centrally located and already contain a lot of government apparatus. Denver's another good choice--it's the second largest center of civil government after DC in the USA--but the East Coast probably would have issues with a capitol situated in the West.
I suppose I could also have had the Bahamas become a State instead of joining Canada.
Naah, what's done is done. But how about Bermuda becoming either a Canadian or US territory?
I live in Prince William County, Virginia, and I can tell you that there is no way in hell that Virginia will allow one of its richest counties to be taken away from it and attached to another state, especially not when it's not coterminous with that state (Arlington County is in the way). Neither will Maryland sit still for having Montgomery County detached from it and added to the District. And that's not even to mention what the residents of those counties will have to say about the matter.
My own preferred solution to the representation matter is to allocate the District a congressional district within the State of Maryland and allow District residents to vote for Maryland's U.S. Senators.
-Joe-
Sorry about that; had Fairfax and Arlington mixed up. Should know better, having been to all of these places enough times...even so, as you say I would expect the state governments involved, and probably the federal courts, to have quite a bit to say in the matter.
Of course any effort by DC to annex anything would depend upon a vote by the community involved. And unfortunately there's not a lot of precedent to guide the speculation: the closest is when West Virginia broke away from Virginia, but that was a very unique circumstance not likely to be repeated (we hope!) Add in the fact that counties, in and of themselves, are not considered sovereign entities the way the states are, and the matter gets very interesting legally. It could make for some fun stories.
Of course any effort by DC to annex anything would depend upon a vote by the community involved. And unfortunately there's not a lot of precedent to guide the speculation: the closest is when West Virginia broke away from Virginia, but that was a very unique circumstance not likely to be repeated (we hope!) Add in the fact that counties, in and of themselves, are not considered sovereign entities the way the states are, and the matter gets very interesting legally. It could make for some fun stories.
Re: the space stuff
A few comments on the space stuff:
1) I'd be dubious of the creation of the "World Space Agency" that soon; all early launch vehicles were modified ICBMs and I frankly can't image the Soviets and US being willing to share that knowledge.
2) Solar power satellites are overrated. They cost ridiculous amounts of money to build and launch, only for a modest return of power. Building large terrestrial arrays in the desert and piping the energy out would much more simple (but still almost impossible).
3) Who is funding all this massive colonisation effort? Top of my head, you're talking about a $1-3 trillion per annum program. NASA's budget is about $16 billion, and ESA's, about $5 billion. Where is all this incentive to spend massively more than OTL on space?
4) If we're talking launch sites, Peenemunde is out: it's too far north to be pragmatic, and has too much populated areas around it for a safe launch trajectory. Von Braun's favoured site was Midway Island, in the south Pacific, as it's pretty much on the equator (in OTL it is the Army's Kwajalein Range). Guyana works as an equatorial site too, as does Kenya and India. Basically, you want somewhere close to the equator, with an Ocean either to the south (polar orbit) or east (equatorial orbit).
Simon
A few comments on the space stuff:
1) I'd be dubious of the creation of the "World Space Agency" that soon; all early launch vehicles were modified ICBMs and I frankly can't image the Soviets and US being willing to share that knowledge.
2) Solar power satellites are overrated. They cost ridiculous amounts of money to build and launch, only for a modest return of power. Building large terrestrial arrays in the desert and piping the energy out would much more simple (but still almost impossible).
3) Who is funding all this massive colonisation effort? Top of my head, you're talking about a $1-3 trillion per annum program. NASA's budget is about $16 billion, and ESA's, about $5 billion. Where is all this incentive to spend massively more than OTL on space?
4) If we're talking launch sites, Peenemunde is out: it's too far north to be pragmatic, and has too much populated areas around it for a safe launch trajectory. Von Braun's favoured site was Midway Island, in the south Pacific, as it's pretty much on the equator (in OTL it is the Army's Kwajalein Range). Guyana works as an equatorial site too, as does Kenya and India. Basically, you want somewhere close to the equator, with an Ocean either to the south (polar orbit) or east (equatorial orbit).
Simon
Again, there's no patent on the laws of physics. Nor were the US, Germans, and Russians the only ones researching rocketry. The British were doing significant rocket research of their own in the 1930's; a few more German rocket scientists defecting and/or being captured by the western forces as opposed to the Soviets would boost the British program as well as the US program. British R&D (in cooperation with French R&D in an effort similar to the development of OTL's Concorde) would provide the nucleus for a European-run space program. Likewise, a major industrial power like Japan could start its own program based upon publicly available research.
Probably the most implausible, given that 1960's solar arrays had about a 9% efficiency rate, but over the long run the effort would be worth it (particularly once petroleum runs out).
Using OTL's technology, you'd be right, but even that figure's an exaggeration. This ATL presumes that aerospace technology doesn't hit the acknowledged dead ends that it did in ours. If the space exploration and military budgets of the participant countries are linked (very likely, considering that space has become a much busier place) then that ramps up the available money considerably.
The economics of scale will eventually bring down the cost as well: building a one-off system is more expensive in both the short and long term than starting a production line. And moving launch and production facilities to space as soon as feasible will lower the cost even further, by reducing the cost of raw materials and the need for massive amounts of thrust to leave Earth's gravity well.
As for incentive, a WWII that went much worse might cause the major powers to seek another avenue for their expansion and resource extraction needs besides conquest. Or maybe in this TL everyone had an attack of brains.
4) If we're talking launch sites, Peenemunde is out: it's too far north to be pragmatic, and has too much populated areas around it for a safe launch trajectory. Von Braun's favoured site was Midway Island, in the south Pacific, as it's pretty much on the equator (in OTL it is the Army's Kwajalein Range). Guyana works as an equatorial site too, as does Kenya and India. Basically, you want somewhere close to the equator, with an Ocean either to the south (polar orbit) or east (equatorial orbit).
Simon
Baikonur's at latitude 46 degrees north and that hasn't really hurt the Soviet/Russian space program any. All it means is a need for more thrust and a higher orbital inclination. Peenemunde is at 54 degrees north, so anything launched from there would be at an even more highly inclined orbit. The population density in the surrounding area is not a bonus for range safety so I'd assume the use of Peenemunde presupposes extremely reliable equipment (on the order of commercial airliners today). The author may want to help us out here.
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Alcuin
Banned
As for incentive, a WWII that went much worse might cause the major powers to seek another avenue for their expansion and resource extraction needs besides conquest. Or maybe in this TL everyone had an attack of brains.
Baikonur's at latitude 46 degrees north and that hasn't really hurt the Soviet/Russian space program any. All it means is a need for more thrust and a higher orbital inclination. Peenemunde is at 54 degrees north, so anything launched from there would be at an even more highly inclined orbit. The population density in the surrounding area is not a bonus for range safety so I'd assume the use of Peenemunde presupposes extremely reliable equipment (on the order of commercial airliners today). The author may want to help us out here.
The incentive for the WSA, was a Glory that did not rely on war. Wars in TTL are smaller and the Cold War is limited. This was helped by the slight thaw of the four years in which Beria was in control of the Soviet Union. Beria was as fanatical as Stalin but much more pragmatic - note his intervention to prevent the Korean War. His ambition was to make the USA believe that the Soviet Union was its equal. (Hence the Israeli bomb for example). After Beria, comes Mrs Molotov who defected to
Israel during Kruschev's coup. She believes that Communism and Capitalism can exist together and that, it makes sense to work together.
Peenemunde was used for the initial launches for political and logistical rather than technical reasons. Much of the reason is based on the need to re-integrate Germany (and hence the EU) as a player in World society.
It's not long before launches are switched to Kourou in French Guiana.
Alcuin
Banned
Yes. But their excesses are somewhat reduced by the combination of American attention and the closeness of a Communist army oin the Dominican People's Republic.
I could see then why their statehood petition would be rejected. Neither Papa Doc nor Baby Doc would ever voluntarily agree to a state constitution compatible with the US Constitution (the other requirement for statehood). Likewise the language barrier (not a formal requirement that English be the official language but it helps). And if the agreement was involuntary, the point is moot anyway.
It took 70 years or so after becoming territories for both Arizona and New Mexico to become states--fighting the perception that democracy couldn't work in a majority Hispanic society despite both territories having acceptable constitutions and working democratic institutions (contrast Oklahoma, where state governors declared martial law no fewer than four times in the first twenty years of statehood despite having the most elaborate constitution of any elected government in the world at the time!) And Puerto Rico's still trying to resolve its status after more than a century (to be fair, the sentiment for statehood in PR in OTL is not nearly as strong as it was in either AZ or NM).
At best, a Haitian statehood bid would be a pipe dream and if it happened at all would be a long way off even given that the necessary reforms were made (barring the US actually conquering and annexing the country, which is unlikely in the extreme by the late 20th century in either OTL or this one).