TL Planning: Aurelian TL

Hello everyone!

So in the poll I made to find out what would be my new TL, The Aurelian TL won the vote.

Now I would like to hear peoples ideas on what could be done for the TL. The more, the better!
 
- Divorce your current wife and marry a daughter of a senator who can help you govern the Empire.
- Adopt a competent and most importantly loyal middle level subordinate as a son. Marry him to your daughter.

There you have two subordinates who you can kinda trust to act in your and the empires interest.

You as Aurelian would also want to achieve som fresh non civil war glory so go off and win a happy little war by walking in and reclaiming Trajan Dacian province.

Otherwise what the Empire needs most is stability and peace. The best way is to work through the Senate while dominating it.
 

Paradoxer

Banned
Hello everyone!

So in the poll I made to find out what would be my new TL, The Aurelian TL won the vote.

Now I would like to hear peoples ideas on what could be done for the TL. The more, the better!
I like to point out that Sol Invictus might develop like western equivalent to Shinto religion in Japan. What I mean is that syncretism will be much more wide spread then it was for Christianity or any similar faiths. It’s basically Romans just organizing its pantheons by adding new or foreign ones or old obscured while reorganizing existing cults, traditions, philosophies, and deities into it. Less “desirable” ones are censored into obscurity or removed completely by state persecution especially if seen as threat or hostile to empire.

The Romans did kind of treat these as “social experiments” at times and like revolutionaries in last two centuries might resort to purging fractions that get “out of hand”(usually politics or starting “annoying” counterculture/dissent within empire in some way).

Think how China often kept close eye and leash on some religious sects and how they often expected to assimilate to their culture at some level. And if not or they stop doing so they had no issue from going to cordial to straight up persecution when seen as root of possible division and dissent.

Religion in Greco-Roman world(Europe and modern western world as whole) would look more like Far East but with its own variations. Like being a philosopher of Plato or Aristotle works would not conflict with following sol cult or traditional pantheons. You could believe in all three as long as you pay tribute to sol(basically emperor and state) like you would your ancestors or local deities. It’s to prevent loyalty to cult or one religion over empire and its citizens or emperor itself.
 
I like to point out that Sol Invictus might develop like western equivalent to Shinto religion in Japan. What I mean is that syncretism will be much more wide spread then it was for Christianity or any similar faiths. It’s basically Romans just organizing its pantheons by adding new or foreign ones or old obscured while reorganizing existing cults, traditions, philosophies, and deities into it. Less “desirable” ones are censored into obscurity or removed completely by state persecution especially if seen as threat or hostile to empire.

The Romans did kind of treat these as “social experiments” at times and like revolutionaries in last two centuries might resort to purging fractions that get “out of hand”(usually politics or starting “annoying” counterculture/dissent within empire in some way).

Think how China often kept close eye and leash on some religious sects and how they often expected to assimilate to their culture at some level. And if not or they stop doing so they had no issue from going to cordial to straight up persecution when seen as root of possible division and dissent.

Religion in Greco-Roman world(Europe and modern western world as whole) would look more like Far East but with its own variations. Like being a philosopher of Plato or Aristotle works would not conflict with following sol cult or traditional pantheons. You could believe in all three as long as you pay tribute to sol(basically emperor and state) like you would your ancestors or local deities. It’s to prevent loyalty to cult or one religion over empire and its citizens or emperor itself.
Sol Invictus will definately be a part of this TL, but you have certain given me alot to work with in terms of how it is handled. I'll have to think about it further until then.
 
- Divorce your current wife and marry a daughter of a senator who can help you govern the Empire.
- Adopt a competent and most importantly loyal middle level subordinate as a son. Marry him to your daughter.

There you have two subordinates who you can kinda trust to act in your and the empires interest.

You as Aurelian would also want to achieve som fresh non civil war glory so go off and win a happy little war by walking in and reclaiming Trajan Dacian province.

Otherwise what the Empire needs most is stability and peace. The best way is to work through the Senate while dominating it.
Thank you for all the ideas, though I don't think Aurelian would just divorce his wife like that.

As for marrying his daughter to a general, I had thought of that idea before, potentially marrying her to a general like Probus.

Aurelian launching campaigns to conquer new land is definitely an option, though I'm not entirely convinced that it would be Dacia, at least not immediately, as that had just been abandoned by Aurelian. On the other hand, something like an invasion of the Sassanids is certainly possible, as I'm pretty sure he was planning an invasion of Persian due to a string of successions weakening them.

Again, thank you for the ideas!
 
Thank you for all the ideas, though I don't think Aurelian would just divorce his wife like that.

As for marrying his daughter to a general, I had thought of that idea before, potentially marrying her to a general like Probus.

Aurelian launching campaigns to conquer new land is definitely an option, though I'm not entirely convinced that it would be Dacia, at least not immediately, as that had just been abandoned by Aurelian. On the other hand, something like an invasion of the Sassanids is certainly possible, as I'm pretty sure he was planning an invasion of Persian due to a string of successions weakening them.

Again, thank you for the ideas!
Why won't Aurelian divorce his political insignificant wife? She hasn't given him son nor multiple children.

You might want to reconsider someone who wasn't an emperor or a pretender in OTL.

That is why reclaiming Dacia such a good option, Aurelian just "temporary redeployed" the troops out of Dacia not abandoned before heading off to new conquest.

Invasion of the Sassanids is a good idea but the Empire needs some peace first.
 
Why won't Aurelian divorce his political insignificant wife? She hasn't given him son nor multiple children.

You might want to reconsider someone who wasn't an emperor or a pretender in OTL.

That is why reclaiming Dacia such a good option, Aurelian just "temporary redeployed" the troops out of Dacia not abandoned before heading off to new conquest.

Invasion of the Sassanids is a good idea but the Empire needs some peace first.
Hmm, some very good points to be sure, I'll try to take those into account. Though Aurelian would attack the Sassanids first, as he was already preparing to invade before he was assassinated.
 
- Divorce your current wife and marry a daughter of a senator who can help you govern the Empire.
Seems a bit rash to divorce his wife to marry the daughter of an insignificant aristocrat when he's already doing a decent job managing the empire himself.
You as Aurelian would also want to achieve som fresh non civil war glory so go off and win a happy little war by walking in and reclaiming Trajan Dacian province.
Wut? Aurelian was the one who abandoned Dacia, why would he reconquer a province he ordered abandoned for the sake of a more defensible border?
Otherwise what the Empire needs most is stability and peace. The best way is to work through the Senate while dominating it.
The Senate is an increasingly irrelevant body, the army is what matters more than everything else and he has the loyalty of the army.
 
It's not difficult to have Aurelian not die. The conspiracy that had him killed was so absurd on its face, and based on a premise that would have fallen apart with even the slightest inquiry, that it would be easy to avoid. Without that, he will go to war with Bahram I, who would prevent a weak opposition-if Carus was able to sack Ctesiphon 8 years later, Aurelian should be able to do so in 275-276, and finally reach some sort of equillibrium on the eastern frontier, at least for a good 20-25 years or so, and possibly for the rest of his reign, depending on if Narseh wants to try his luck or not in the 290s.
 

Paradoxer

Banned
Seems a bit rash to divorce his wife to marry the daughter of an insignificant aristocrat when he's already doing a decent job managing the empire himself.

Wut? Aurelian was the one who abandoned Dacia, why would he reconquer a province he ordered abandoned for the sake of a more defensible border?

The Senate is an increasingly irrelevant body, the army is what matters more than everything else and he has the loyalty of the army.
Dacia can be made client or buffer state. Better that way. Get more defensible borders while keeping coastal areas of modern Romania. Everything north and east of river is Dacia kingdom loyal to Rome that helps absorb bit of barbarians encroachment or raids.
 
Dacia can be made client or buffer state. Better that way. Get more defensible borders while keeping coastal areas of modern Romania. Everything north and east of river is Dacia kingdom loyal to Rome that helps absorb bit of barbarians encroachment or raids.
Invading Gothic Dacia is going to be very costly and very time consuming for little benefit that a status quo that sees the Goths pliant doesn't already have. Furthermore, Aurelian is going to get his foreign victory anyway, against the Persians.
 
Invading Gothic Dacia is going to be very costly and very time consuming for little benefit that a status quo that sees the Goths pliant doesn't already have. Furthermore, Aurelian is going to get his foreign victory anyway, against the Persians.
I think it would still be abandoned. I don’t see what could make him not abandon it. And it really is a drain at this point.
Exactly and dacia's citizens have been relocated to the balkans as their population has been devastated by the Gothic hordes.
Dacia is not really defensible in the long term.
It will be less than five years since they left Dacia and even if the goths walking in the day the Roman left, they will still not be that entrenched in the area. Plus there will still be allot of citizens in the area who will most likely help you.

What do you mean not defensible, you have the Carpathians more or less surrounding the entire province.

Dacia was one of the richest border regions of the Empire due to its mines and the good soil.

A permanent victory against the Persians will be much hard then the recently abandoned province of and will keep Aurelian away from Rome much longer than is wise. Aurelian should be focused on restoring stability and peace to the empire that requires long stays in Rome and rule as one did prior to start of third century crisis.
 
It will be less than five years since they left Dacia and even if the goths walking in the day the Roman left, they will still not be that entrenched in the area. Plus there will still be allot of citizens in the area who will most likely help you.

What do you mean not defensible, you have the Carpathians more or less surrounding the entire province.
Dacia was already in an actively deteriorating situation when Aurelian had the province evacuated. The tribes being pushed westward by the Goths were already in Dacia and it was a constant struggle to keep the province Roman. Clearly it wasn't that defensible. And has already been mentioned a few times now, much of the Roman populace was evacuated to other provinces when Dacia was abandoned.
Dacia was one of the richest border regions of the Empire due to its mines and the good soil.
Many of the mines, especially the gold mines, had been long closed down by the end of the 3rd Century as they were tapped out. The Romans worked quick at getting what mineral resources they could. Anything left probably wouldn't be worth the expense of trying to defend a much longer border.
A permanent victory against the Persians will be much hard then the recently abandoned province of and will keep Aurelian away from Rome much longer than is wise. Aurelian should be focused on restoring stability and peace to the empire that requires long stays in Rome and rule as one did prior to start of third century crisis.
Aurelian already brought peace to the empire, that's why he was going east to fight the Persians. It was a random conspiracy cooked up by a paranoid corrupt secretary that got him, not a continuation of the civil wars he just ended. And reconquering a province he just ordered to be abandoned would be simply ridiculous and make him look like an idiot. Better to secure the eastern border against Rome's inveterate enemy than wage a pointless war for an indefensible border, Aurelian was no fool.
 
It will be less than five years since they left Dacia and even if the goths walking in the day the Roman left, they will still not be that entrenched in the area. Plus there will still be allot of citizens in the area who will most likely help you.

What do you mean not defensible, you have the Carpathians more or less surrounding the entire province.

Dacia was one of the richest border regions of the Empire due to its mines and the good soil.

A permanent victory against the Persians will be much hard then the recently abandoned province of and will keep Aurelian away from Rome much longer than is wise. Aurelian should be focused on restoring stability and peace to the empire that requires long stays in Rome and rule as one did prior to start of third century crisis.
Dacia wasn’t defendable, that’s a fact. Look at how frequently it was attacked and how much it stuck out like a soar thumb. Having the Danube as the border was far more better solution that worked out quite well for the empire. If the empire could’ve defended it without it being a drain they would’ve. If he retook it he’d just be wasting irreplaceable imperial resources on a province that’ll just be attacked in a few years and need more resources put into it. And retaking it isn’t nearly as prestigious as beating the Persians, which wouldn’t have been too hard considering it was done by Carus a few years later.

The empire has already ben stabilized. He defeated all usurpers and worked things out. His rule was stable and only undone by a comically dumb conspiracy. Decisively defeating the Persians and securing the eastern border would be a far more beneficial move for the empire than retaking a liability like Dacia when he already abandoned it. Plus it would make sure he wouldn’t be distracted in the East and could focus elsewhere. Staying in Rome wouldn’t have been some great help as having other people do the fighting is the perfect recipe for a general getting too much prestige and declaring themselves emperor.
 
A permanent victory against the Persians will be much hard then the recently abandoned province of and will keep Aurelian away from Rome much longer than is wise. Aurelian should be focused on restoring stability and peace to the empire that requires long stays in Rome and rule as one did prior to start of third century crisis.
And yet, Aurelian was already in the final stages of preparations to invade the Persian Empire, and the Romans had a serious interest in doing so until Carus went as far as sacking Ctesiphon, and was planning to go further before his sudden death in 283. It stands to reason that Aurelian could actually roll back pretty much all of Rome's losses in the east from the 3rd century anarchy.
 
Thanks for all the interesting thoughts. It has given me alot to write about. As a result, I'll state the start of the TL.

The POD comes with the discovery that the execution list is a forgery before the assassination happens, meaning it is never carried out and Eros (the guy that caused it) is punished by Aurelian. After that Aurelian starts his campaign against the Persians. I'll leave it there to not spoil the rest of my ideas, as well as leave it open.

Keep them coming!
 
idk if that was already mentioned but it would be interesting to see of sth else then feudalism could develop with different reforms then the ones Diocletian made
 
Top