TL-191: Featherston's Finest - Uniforms, Weapons, and Vehicles of the CSA and Freedom Party

In all honesty I don't really agree with the idea that the USA should have Wehrmacht ANYTHING - remember, it's Dixie that went Southern Fried Fascist! - and would suggest that it makes more sense to think of the "Coal-scuttle" helmet as only secondarily a visual link to 20th Century Germany; I would argue that it makes more sense to take this helmet, given its similarity to the modern US Army standard, as a strong visual hint that the Timeline 191 United States is looking to the future in a way that the SOUTHERN VICTORY Confederate States of America never quite seems to (consider that, even after the Featherston Administration starts dragging the Confederacy kicking & screaming into the middle 20th Century, the South looks no farther into the future than the next war with the United States).

I've never really gone on at length about my ideas for the Uniforms of the CSA Vs the USA, but here are the highlights:-

-:GREAT WAR

- I'm definitely of the opinion that Confederate Uniforms for this conflict are topped off by a Kepi (although more due to the Kepi's associations with victory in the War of Secession & the Second Mexican War than due to fairly rampant Francophilia); I'd imagine that the French influence on the Confederate States is likely to be more visible in the armoury than on the clothes horse (since France entered the conflict looking more Napoleonic than is strictly comfortable to contemplate), with French influence particularly visible in the field artillery (as mentioned in the text) and aviation elements (the Tredegar rifle may well be influenced by the Lebel 1886 to boot).

While the Confederacy isn't as aggressively backward-looking as the French (they WON their big 19th Century Wars), their uniforms & equipment should have a somewhat old fashioned cut (think of the difference between CS & US uniforms at the start of the Great War as somewhat equivalent to that between Pershing's command on the Mexican Border and the AEF on the Western Front), though not to the point of being impractical for modern warfare.

The USA uniform contains far fewer backward-looking flourishes (they don't have any Great Victories to look back to and have to look forward to future triumphs), which gives them a more "modern" look (by the standards of 1914); as though they were looking ahead to the Second World War but didn't quite realise it. Another idea that I'm fond of is that the USA uses a peaked cap quite similar to that of the British "Tommy" (to help distinguish them from the Confederate Kepi, but also as a way of showing that in this Timeline the American Civil War has reached out to swallow the entire English-Speaking World).


- Both the North & the South still use the Blue = Infantry/Red = Artillery/Gold = Cavalry branch of service colours (although as mentioned elsewhere, at some point the two nations start pointing their chevrons in a different direction - the CSA point down and the USA point up - as a visual joke & useful shorthand). For the record I imagine that US Army sergeants would wear much the same uniform as officers, while CS Army sergeants wear the same uniform as their troopers (to help visually separate Jake Featherston from the officer corps he will come to loathe and eventually surmount, as well as point out the more "Aristocratic" nature of the CSAs officer corp).


- I've toyed with the idea that CS General Staff officers (at least during the First Great War) would wear a grey jacket with their uniform (with "butternut" trousers) to help more closely associate them with the Great generals of the past; I've also toyed with the idea that white would be the branch of service colour for the CS General staff (hence its use by the CS Military Police, who are in some ways HQs representatives on the Front Lines), since this lets me imagine the average Johnny referring to his ultimate superiors as "Lillywhites."


- I like the idea that the CS Army of the Great War is still split between National and State regiments; the cut of their uniforms are functionally identical, but State regiments likely use different buttons, cap badges and so forth (I'm also fond of the idea that while every US Army officer wears "US" on their collar, only officers in CS Regular regiments wear "CS" while State officers use the initials of their homeland - i.e. VA or GA or TX).


- British influences on the CSA should probably be modelled on those elements of weaponry & equipment employed by Imperial Dominions like Canada or Australia & New Zealand (if the British were willing to give it to the Dominions or to Russia, they would probably give it to the Cofederacy).


- US Military Police use red as their identifying colour, their Confederate equivalents use White (for reasons that should be obvious!).


- N.B. Of course uniforms would change over the course of a War, becoming simpler and somewhat rougher (as spares run out on the Confederate side one would probably see forces on less important fronts being obliged to use elements of civilian wear).


-:BETWEEN THE WARS

- For some reason one imagines the US & CS Armies more closely resembling each other during this period (at least in terms of uniform), the Confederacy electing to apply an "If you can't beat them, copy them" mentality (attempting to work out what allowed the US to beat them - besides overwhelming manpower & material superiority - attempting to copy that and then improve on it to the point where they could hope to beat the Yankees at their own game).

- One definitely imagines the Confederate Army would be much shrunken after the Armistice; it seems highly likely that the General Staff would make a point of finally subordinating State Regiments to the Central Government (creating a single fully-Nationalised Army for the first time in Southern History); any lingering differences in Uniform between regiments would likely be swept away in the process (though a smaller army means that the South can better afford to equip everyone to the highest standard the Armistice allows).

- Having won the Great War and thoroughly vivified its confidence, it seems highly likely that whatever Germanic influences the North adopted would likely be retired during this period (for the record I doubt the USA would have gone Full Prussian at any point); given this is a period of relative retrenchment under various Socialist Administrations, it seems unlikely there would be major changes to Uniforms & personal equipment (though the North would likely do its best to keep up with major advances in aircraft & warships).

One idea to keep in mind is that the US Army spends the entire inter war period focussing on partizans and a North American continent where all the local opposition has been cut down to size under conventions imposed following the Armistice; I'd expect it to be somewhat left behind by the US Navy, Us Air Corps and the USMC (which are the branches of service most likely to be launched against First-Rank opponents overseas and would, of course, receive whatever investments might be made during the Pacific War).

- One idea that isn't more relevant to any single Great War/American Empire/Settling Accounts period than it is to all the others is the thought that, while the CSA happily uses a campaign hat with the "Lime Juicer" peak (think Smokey the Bear or a Canadian Mountie) the USA prefers the "Carlsbad Crease" (think Col. Kilgore from APOCALYPSE NOW); this is a purely artificial conceit, as it helps set the US campaign hat apart from its Southern equivalent (all the better to prevent Yankee soldiers from looking like a Canadian or a Southern Sheriff!).


-:SECOND GREAT WAR

- Another idea to help set the CSA apart from the USA visually concerns camouflage patterns; my idea is that the North & South never use colours associated with their rival as principal colours - so US camouflage patterns only use the very smallest elements of grey & khaki, while Southern camouflage seldom uses large areas of Blue or Green (one imagines that the Confederate equivalent to the Fleet Air Arm would paint their warbirds grey, rather than blue).


- By the Second Great War Featherston has doubtless applied his levelling instincts to Army fashions; it seems likely that every Confederate soldier wears much the same uniform (at least in the field). Suggest still using the Kepi to indicate which elements within the army (mostly the Generals) are still the least assimilated to the Freedom Party way of doing things? The rest of the army might well use a floppier "patrol cap" as their standard headwear.


- One last idea; at the very start of the Second Great War, the US Army should look as though it has been treading water through much of the Inter-War period; not hopelessly out of date, more like a service that has done JUST ENOUGH to get ready and not much more (if the US Army of the Great War seemed to be looking forward to the Second World War, the US Army of the Second Great War looks as though it isn't enjoying the Big One now that its here).

The Confederate Army, on the other hand, should look like a service whose time has come; this is their Big Break, rather than a major distraction from the Hard Work of keeping North America under wraps.


Please pardon my ideas for being more general and less specific; the last thought I wish to leave you with is that while we should make sure both sides evidence a strong sense of American elements from Our Timeline mixed in with more foreign designs, we should be careful about which foreign influences we should pull in (for example I don't really agree with the idea we should borrow from the Soviet Union for the 2GW* United States, as I would argue that the parallels between the USA & the West European democracies at the start of WWII are far stronger - especially with the French Republic, suffering less from top-down purges and more from bottom-up malaise).

I am especially inclined to think that using WWII Germans a model for the 2GW US Army is contra-indicated, given that the Third Reich became what it did because it LOST a war and the US Army suffered from the problems of Victory rather than defeat (and also because Germany & the US drifted apart between the Wars, implying that any teutonic influence on American designs would be much weaker later in the first half of the 20th Century).

*2GW = Second Great War (this explanation may well be redundant, one merely wished it to be available as a courtesy).
I agree with some of your points and disagree with a couple of others but my thinking is different from yours. Let me explain, to a point I agree that the US wouldn't copy everything German but I think its OK to use some Bits of WWII German Weapons because they've all been butterflied away and when making up new stuff like say tanks or planes I see no problem using say a turret from a Panther tank because it is just a sloped turret and could've been designed by anyone.

I could also see the CSA or the USA using the Christie suspension, ITTL it would've been invented by someone else, maybe even someone who wasn't american. I could also see the CSA design something close to the STuG.III and other turret-less tank destroyers for the same reason the Germans in WWII did, they're cheaper to build and can carry a bigger gun than a normal tank.

I personally like to see stuff from our timeline get mixed with other stuff to create something new, than to take something from OTL like say a Russian semi-automatic rifle and just change the name and say this now a US rifle made by the John Wayne gun company.

I also have no problem with the US using the coal scuttle helmet, it was a good design but it should've been designed by the Germans and then borrowed by the Americans. Other than the helmet, the US could resemble OTL US in WWII and I agree with you that the CS could be a mix of British and US uniforms but in different colors.

In the end though we are just using our imaginations and our knowledge of OTL and a fictitious series of books and I don't think there's anything wrong with using the rule of cool now and then too.
Over all though I think you make some very good points.
 
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This strikes me has similar to the type of smg's the confederacy would use.

Also I'm wondering if Second Great War era Confederate uniforms would actually be closer to OTL Japanese helmets than OTL American.
 
Given that Japan is the only Entente power to remain effectively undefeated, I can actually see the Confederacy borrowing some inspiration from their military hardware (especially after the Pacific War, where the Empire of the Rising Sun manages to hold off the USA without very much in the way of help); in fact I'd be quite surprised if the Japanese didn't make some attempt to drag the Confederacy into the Pacific War, an effort doomed to defeat by the fact that the incumbent Whig Administration was smart enough to know that there simply wasn't enough in it for them (doubtless while Featherston worked to persuade himself that letting such a perfectly good excuse to Kill Yankees was necessary rather than an insult to everything the South stood for, quite possibly while simultaneously abusing the Mitchel Administration for EVERY LITTLE THING).
 
Given that Japan is the only Entente power to remain effectively undefeated, I can actually see the Confederacy borrowing some inspiration from their military hardware (especially after the Pacific War, where the Empire of the Rising Sun manages to hold off the USA without very much in the way of help); in fact I'd be quite surprised if the Japanese didn't make some attempt to drag the Confederacy into the Pacific War, an effort doomed to defeat by the fact that the incumbent Whig Administration was smart enough to know that there simply wasn't enough in it for them (doubtless while Featherston worked to persuade himself that letting such a perfectly good excuse to Kill Yankees was necessary rather than an insult to everything the South stood for, quite possibly while simultaneously abusing the Mitchel Administration for EVERY LITTLE THING).
If the CSA hadn't been so racist, it could've made an alliance with Japan that could have benefited the CS navy big time but Featherston was even more close minded than Hitler of all people.
 
In all honesty I don't really agree with the idea that the USA should have Wehrmacht ANYTHING - remember, it's Dixie that went Southern Fried Fascist! - and would suggest that it makes more sense to think of the "Coal-scuttle" helmet as only secondarily a visual link to 20th Century Germany; I would argue that it makes more sense to take this helmet, given its similarity to the modern US Army standard, as a strong visual hint that the Timeline 191 United States is looking to the future in a way that the SOUTHERN VICTORY Confederate States of America never quite seems to (consider that, even after the Featherston Administration starts dragging the Confederacy kicking & screaming into the middle 20th Century, the South looks no farther into the future than the next war with the United States).

....

I am especially inclined to think that using WWII Germans a model for the 2GW US Army is contra-indicated, given that the Third Reich became what it did because it LOST a war and the US Army suffered from the problems of Victory rather than defeat (and also because Germany & the US drifted apart between the Wars, implying that any teutonic influence on American designs would be much weaker later in the first half of the 20th Century).

The problem with that is that it is explicitly stated by Turtledove in the text that the US Army is modelled on the German army right down to uniform and equipment during First Great War and he keeps mentioning it throughout the books. Also just as there are very clear visual linkages between the OTL Kaiserreich and the Wehrmacht the 2GW US Army will visually look like a descendant of it's German themed 1GW predecessor.
 


I saw this the other day when reading about the SMLE. My understanding is that the Confederacy's GW1 rifle was basically an SMLE. Well, this is a rifle called the Rieder that was meant as an automatic version of the SMLE. I think it gives a decent mental image of the TAR, though I'd imagine the Confederates wouldn't keep the weird bit behind the trigger.
Interesting. Wouldn't be surprised if this was designed with "trench warfare" in mind. I think I can use parts of this for something a little less cumbersome.
 
As the war progressed the CSA found itself desperate for barrels and barrel busters. Damaged and captured barrels were hobbled together to make all kinds of improvised weapon systems.
Below a recovered Dire-Wolf that lost its turret, is pressed back into service with a captured US 90mm gun mounted crudely atop the hull.

CS Heavy Barrel Buster.png
 
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I saw this the other day when reading about the SMLE. My understanding is that the Confederacy's GW1 rifle was basically an SMLE. Well, this is a rifle called the Rieder that was meant as an automatic version of the SMLE. I think it gives a decent mental image of the TAR, though I'd imagine the Confederates wouldn't keep the weird bit behind the trigger.

Yep. I can see this being a stop-gap of sorts during the final days of the Great War in North America, around 1917. The Confederates, looking to outfit their soldiers with anything like the submachine-guns the US soldiers had, would, like, make this design. Half part experimental and half part final copy. Can definitely see this as being the precursor to the TAR, like as if the design they used in the Second Great War sprouted from this.

In fact...

AE_WW2_British_Rifles_by_SimonLMoore.jpg


^^^ --- The two images here circled could be a natural development of the TAR in future years, if you wanted it to be based off the SMLE design. The one I like most is the one marked "Rifle No. 7 Mk. II 1947". I apologize, I can't remember where I got this image from, so I can't give proper credit to the maker of these rifles. If anyone knows please set a link. I do know it was from this site though.
 


I saw this the other day when reading about the SMLE. My understanding is that the Confederacy's GW1 rifle was basically an SMLE. Well, this is a rifle called the Rieder that was meant as an automatic version of the SMLE. I think it gives a decent mental image of the TAR, though I'd imagine the Confederates wouldn't keep the weird bit behind the trigger.

Yep. I can see this being a stop-gap of sorts during the final days of the Great War in North America, around 1917. The Confederates, looking to outfit their soldiers with anything like the submachine-guns the US soldiers had, would, like, make this design. Half part experimental and half part final copy. Can definitely see this as being the precursor to the TAR, like as if the design they used in the Second Great War sprouted from this.

In fact...

View attachment 412694

^^^ --- The two images here circled could be a natural development of the TAR in future years, if you wanted it to be based off the SMLE design. The one I like most is the one marked "Rifle No. 7 Mk. II 1947". I apologize, I can't remember where I got this image from, so I can't give proper credit to the maker of these rifles. If anyone knows please set a link. I do know it was from this site though.
This looked like fun idea to play with, so I did and I could also see this as a post great war development that led to the second great war Tredegar.

Tredegar-Rieder_Automatic_Rifle.jpg


I just reworked the original drawing a little and only the last half of the barrel came from a different gun but the pic of the gun I used didn't have a name, I think its an interwar design but I don't know what country its from. :confused::frown:
 
This looked like fun idea to play with, so I did and I could also see this as a post great war development that led to the second great war Tredegar.

I just reworked the original drawing a little and only the last half of the barrel came from a different gun but the pic of the gun I used didn't have a name, I think its an interwar design but I don't know what country its from. :confused::frown:

Hah, call it the Tredegar Automatic Mk. 1 or something. A design meant to solve the Confederacy's lack of firepower for infantrymen on the battlefield. Recoil must have been a wild jump if it was using rifle rounds.
 
As the war progressed the CSA found itself desperate for barrels and barrel busters. Damaged and captured barrels were hobbled together to make all kinds of improvised weapon systems.
Below a recovered Dire-Wolf that lost its turret, is pressed back into service with a captured US 90mm gun mounted crudely atop the hull.

This one feels like a "last ditch" tank. How they ever got a US gun on it must have been quite a feat in itself. I can see this model being very, very rare, like the "Erstaz Panthers" used in the Battle of the Bulge. Just tanks that were salvaged and thrown together by individual battlefield mechanics toward the end of the war to make for the fact that they lacked parts for their tanks.
 
Okay an idea for a Confederate submachine gun.

To keep with their more backwater nature when compared to the US I'd suggest something similar to this, having a bit of an older, rifle feel to it. Along with being side loaded similar to the German MP-18 or British Sterling Submachine Gun. Though with some of the later models being given a folding metal stock similar to the MP-41.

Sterling SMG

MP-41

@cortz#9 actually had a good design incorporating some of these elements. Its not a system that feeds from the side, but it looks sufficiently vintage enough fit what you're saying here. I like to call it the Griswold
 
This one feels like a "last ditch" tank. How they ever got a US gun on it must have been quite a feat in itself. I can see this model being very, very rare, like the "Erstaz Panthers" used in the Battle of the Bulge. Just tanks that were salvaged and thrown together by individual battlefield mechanics toward the end of the war to make for the fact that they lacked parts for their tanks.
The gun is just mounted in a very simple manner, just bolted to the tank floor. It cannot rotate, to turn the direction of the gun, you have to turn the tank. Its kind of like a StuG. but with a lot less armor protection.
 
The gun is just mounted in a very simple manner, just bolted to the tank floor. It cannot rotate, to turn the direction of the gun, you have to turn the tank. Its kind of like a StuG. but with a lot less armor protection.

The most basic of self propelled guns huh. Yeah good luck to the crews manning that thing. US troops will make mince meat of them if they ever get close. Such is the fate of the Confederate soldier lol
 
The most basic of self propelled guns huh. Yeah good luck to the crews manning that thing. US troops will make mince meat of them if they ever get close. Such is the fate of the Confederate soldier lol
I picture them being used in ambush scenarios, well hidden and camouflaged, sitting silently in wait until the enemy is very close and then letting all hell let loose.
Like the Japanese at the end of the war IOTL.
 
No one's brought it up yet, but I was hoping someone would. Oh well, it is kind of hard to picture.

I've been wondering what Confederate battleships would look like, that's to say they had any at all, any that could compete with the United States Navy's own. My optimistic guess is that that would have ships of comparable displacement and armament, but would not be able to produce as many. I also think that by the time of the Second Great War the Confederate Navy would hardly have been able to make any. Instead, I believe the Confederates would have retrofitted their battle ships and modernized them, to keep them afloat. It would be in the same vein as how the Soviets in our timeline modernized and retrofitted their Tsarist-era dreadnoughts like the Gangut and the Marat. So perhaps by the Second Great War the Confederate Navy is actually operating a handful of retrofitted dreadnoughts from the 1900s and 1910s in the hopes they would compete against the US Navy's ships.

All of this just a guess though. So, what would these ships look like?

My first candidate for a "look" is the USS South Carolina from our timeline - that is if you want to have a more "American" design:

1507762537000.jpg


uss-bb-26-south-carolina-battleship.png


If you want one with foreign influence, then you can't go wrong with the original herself - the HMS Dreadnought, for a "British" design:

TR06706-2.jpg


7518834696_d8a037f421_b.jpg


Again, the reason why I'm choosing these older designs is because I believe the Confederate Navy is more likely to retrofit and modernize the few battleships they do have to keep them afloat rather than build new ones, though they'd certainly try.
 
Honest the CSA had ok yards taken at Norfolk. But they lacked industry. Most likely they would been depended on British yards instead of domestic built for anything under 12,000 tons.
 
Honest the CSA had ok yards taken at Norfolk. But they lacked industry. Most likely they would been depended on British yards instead of domestic built for anything under 12,000 tons.

Oookay, so, any ship designs out there below 12,000 tonnes that the Confederates can make themselves? Would the British even allow the Confederates to build their ships in their yards? Seems kinda odd to me. Plus with the time deviation Norfolk might look and operate differently than in our timeline. Perhaps it was expanded after the Civil War ended in 1862 to accommodate shipbuilding, then again in the lead up to the Great War of 1914.
 
Oookay, so, any ship designs out there below 12,000 tonnes that the Confederates can make themselves? Would the British even allow the Confederates to build their ships in their yards? Seems kinda odd to me. Plus with the time deviation Norfolk might look and operate differently than in our timeline. Perhaps it was expanded after the Civil War ended in 1862 to accommodate shipbuilding, then again in the lead up to the Great War of 1914.
That 12,000 tons figure is at 1914 after building up. They lack the heavy industry needed to build a large robust shipbuilding industry. Further they got a lot land to cover. Cuba, Sonora, the Atlantic Coast, and parts of the Caribbean. They would be depended on British yards for the simple fact they just can't make enough steel for everything they need. Most likely they could had built some ACRs that are on the lighter side in the 1890s and 1900s. Maybe even a second class BB or two. But the bulk of the battleine is coming from British yards.
 
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