Note, when people say they 'have no idea' what they mean is they 'really don't know'.
The Whale has Wings
- Thread starter Astrodragon
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Hmm, lot of stuff going on here, with a second round of airstrikes- figures that TF-16's 2nd strike, depending on whether or not KB has a lot of CAP up, ought to take out another Japanese carrier, assuming they don't select a carrier that's already been hit, & if Hornet's group operating from Midway can join the party, they might do the same.
However, that's a pretty big strike KB sent off, even if not as powerful or well-protected as the one that wrecked TF-17, though if the US AA defenses & CAP can perform about as well this time as they did in the first round, it'll get pretty badly chewed up - wonder if they'll finish off Yorktown, sting Hornet (good thing there's that runway at Midway to divert to- hope the aircrews don't mind hanging out with the gooneybirds for a while), or try to do both. (though I think I missed the part where Ticonderoga was supposed to sink, or was it not mentioned in a post?
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Figure that when the smoke clears from the second round, both the US & Japan will probably be down to a single operational deck from TF-16/17 & KB, just in time for Force Z to join in & deliver the coup de grace, aided by that somewhat reasonable little Japanese misinterpretation of their sighting reports, though given that the Japanese could be operating under the assumption that for the RN to intervene in time, somebody would have to have had been reading their mail, could their finally finding out just who the newcomers to the south really are have some implications for Allied SIGINT?
However, that's a pretty big strike KB sent off, even if not as powerful or well-protected as the one that wrecked TF-17, though if the US AA defenses & CAP can perform about as well this time as they did in the first round, it'll get pretty badly chewed up - wonder if they'll finish off Yorktown, sting Hornet (good thing there's that runway at Midway to divert to- hope the aircrews don't mind hanging out with the gooneybirds for a while), or try to do both. (though I think I missed the part where Ticonderoga was supposed to sink, or was it not mentioned in a post?
)Figure that when the smoke clears from the second round, both the US & Japan will probably be down to a single operational deck from TF-16/17 & KB, just in time for Force Z to join in & deliver the coup de grace, aided by that somewhat reasonable little Japanese misinterpretation of their sighting reports, though given that the Japanese could be operating under the assumption that for the RN to intervene in time, somebody would have to have had been reading their mail, could their finally finding out just who the newcomers to the south really are have some implications for Allied SIGINT?
Not very much difference when conducting strikes at sea with no way of being guided to the target.
The techniques used for long over-water flights wont work in a strike.
The FAA can also increase their effective range by adding some ASV planes to the strike and so reduce the fuel allowance for wandering over the Pacific trying to find a target.
The Japanese range is greater, just not by that much (or they would have been going AWAY from the US carriers in OTL to open the range...)
I'm aware of that. I'm also annoyingly pedantic. Maybe I need to up the number of smilies I use...
Force Z does have a CAP of some 24 Sea Eagles, with another 24 warmed up. Plus the Japanese are about to witness the AA fire of this FULLY OPERATIONAL Audacious-class carrier...
King George VI in full garter robes and hood sitting on the Bridge of HMS Audacious stroking a white cat
"Now witness the fire power of this fully armed and OPERATIONAL Super Carrier"
if google translate was used for translation you have to be suspicious of the results anyway. always look at the list of alternate translations.
interestingly when i use it to translate dutch-japanese it comes up with a different word : 空母
now why do i hear that with the voice of dr evil LOL
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usertron2020
Donor
Hmm. Whatever happens to the KB next it looks like TF 16 is going to get curbstomped, while the CVL strike against Force Z gets splashed. Leaving a night strike to finish off the IJN carriers. This is looking like Force Z is going to have to engage in a long stern chase. Which can only go so far until it hits the air circle of Wake.
Derek Pullem
Donor
Think you may be overstating the ability of Wake Island to deter the carriers. Normal complement of aircraft was around 50. 20-30 bombers are not really going to scare Force Z and whats left of TF17 off from demolishing the IJN battleline.
May not be such a long stern chase for some - just how fast do those troop filled transports that have joined the battle line go?
Seriously joining the battle line to the transports (or stripping the transports of their escort group) is going to end in tears. What with all those catalinas prowling.
Seriously joining the battle line to the transports (or stripping the transports of their escort group) is going to end in tears. What with all those catalinas prowling.
Derek Pullem
Donor
18 knots.
So if Force Z are 180 miles away and travelling at 30 kns they will catch them in 15 hours during which the Invasion fleet is 270 nm closer to safety. Wake is 1000 nm from Midway.
IJN will either lose their transport fleet or lose their battle line - Force Z et al will probably have at least 24 hours to fly combat missions against the naval units and 48 hours against the transports
The 10 Bettys on Wake Island are not that scary!
EDIT actually they will be lucky to make 15 kns
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The RN only has to close to 150 miles, the aircraft close the rest. Also, the Japanese are expecting maybe a couple of CVLs with heavy cruiser escorts, not 3 CVs with battleships, so they probably aren't going to realise they should have been running until the FAA is already overhead en masse.
Are the Catalinas able to carry torpedoes at this stage of the war? If so then both the KB and IJN Battle line could be caused further angst by continued night attacks by long range Cats out of Midway being vectored onto targets by Radar equiped shadowers fron the RN task force. No rest for Japanes crews through the dark hours and continous interuptions to damage control work would all have an adverse effect on the defences agaist a dawn DB attack. Also if the FAA do carry out a succesful night Torepedo attack then subsequent aircraft making attack runs will give them the real jitters.
usertron2020
Donor
The Cats DO have torpedoes, but the state of those fish and the training of the pilots mean they are of little more than nuisance value, save for finishing off cripples.
That was my point, a continous series of Cat attacks overnight whether they hit anything or not is going to unsettle the IJN/KB units. If these happen before and after the main RN /FAA attack so much the better, because that will make them wonder what the next assault is!
Yeah, even if some reason carrier aircraft are absent for this clash, the IJN might first try to detach 1-2 BB as rearguard to delay/destroy the 'cruisers' following them.
This assumes that the battleline still believes the cruisers report. Not entirely farfetched depending on how the IJN planes discover the truth - if they do at all, they might have more pressing concerns than arriving at the 'Those are BB's' conclusion - and how it gets distributed.
And very soon or, at least by morning, Midway will be able to regard KB as the secondary target.
I think 18kts is an overestimate Kaigun page gives Zenyo Maru (otl part of the convoy ) with a cruise at 14kts and max at 16.7.
BUT the first line/fast transports were also used in the invasions of Malaya, Ambon and Timor OTL so right now may creating biodiversity
Yamato's staff will be pointing out several things.
It looks like we are winning boss so calling off the invasion right now is not an option.
In order to invade the invasion force has to advance at a rate determined by the tides around Midway.
Joining the Invasion force and Main Body means slowing the main body to the speed of the transports and locking it to their course.
Taking the CVL or it’s a/c away deprives the invasion force of its main air and antisub defense.
While the opportunity to strike at the CVE may exist that does not make it a good idea – especially when KB has a strike on hand likely to be far heavier and better escorted in the first place.
The Army will be very very annoyed if you drown their favourite colonel and all his regiment even if you win the naval battle.
On the comms from a strike I think that depends on how they did it. Voice transmission would be feasible (oh fuck, sea eagles! SEA EAGLES!) but if they have to use a morse key I doubt if they could manage to mentally compose and tap out message in the middle of a fight so the transmission may depend on aircraft surviving the intercept and attack sufficiently intact with enough height to transmit.
Of course all that proves is that its British CVE they are attacking or British plane types on Americans.
I think 18kts is an overestimate Kaigun page gives Zenyo Maru (otl part of the convoy ) with a cruise at 14kts and max at 16.7.
BUT the first line/fast transports were also used in the invasions of Malaya, Ambon and Timor OTL so right now may creating biodiversity
Yamato's staff will be pointing out several things.
It looks like we are winning boss so calling off the invasion right now is not an option.
In order to invade the invasion force has to advance at a rate determined by the tides around Midway.
Joining the Invasion force and Main Body means slowing the main body to the speed of the transports and locking it to their course.
Taking the CVL or it’s a/c away deprives the invasion force of its main air and antisub defense.
While the opportunity to strike at the CVE may exist that does not make it a good idea – especially when KB has a strike on hand likely to be far heavier and better escorted in the first place.
The Army will be very very annoyed if you drown their favourite colonel and all his regiment even if you win the naval battle.
On the comms from a strike I think that depends on how they did it. Voice transmission would be feasible (oh fuck, sea eagles! SEA EAGLES!) but if they have to use a morse key I doubt if they could manage to mentally compose and tap out message in the middle of a fight so the transmission may depend on aircraft surviving the intercept and attack sufficiently intact with enough height to transmit.
Of course all that proves is that its British CVE they are attacking or British plane types on Americans.
Derek Pullem
Donor
The potential strike from 3 CVLs is greater than the second strike capability from the KB at the moment - and I agree that the invasion fleet would be lucky to make 15 kns.
Wouldn't a search plane be tasked with keeping contact / damage reports from Force Z?
Derek Pullem
Donor
Audacious can be classed as a CVE....
She's just a really really BIG CVE....
Aye
Cruiser, aViation, Enormous
I did, before battle was joinedNow come on, who saw this coming??
Alright it wasn't exactly what I anticipated, but the Japanese Command have still mixed up RN units for USN, it's just that they think Implacable & Bulwark are US CVEs. It's still going to be very painful for them when they find out how wrong they are, not to mention they still haven't found Audacious
Pilot: It can't be, the Americans don't have any more! They just can't be Fleet Carriers!<cut>What's the Japanese for "That's no CVE, that's a Fleet Carrier"‽
Observer: I have a bad feeling about this...
Formation Commander: Turn the strike around!
(This also fits in here somewhere...)
Observer: Sir! Enemy fighters coming in from 5 o'clock high!
Pilot: IT'S A TRAP!!!
Remember, the invasion force and the Main Body have now joined up.
So thats 3 CVL, enough to put out a decent strike.
Between them they have 45F, 52DB, 27TBR - in fact rather more than they can get off easily in a single strike. They arent as well trained as KB, of course.
Force Z does have a CAP of some 24 Sea Eagles, with another 24 warmed up. Plus the Japanese are about to witness the AA fire of this FULLY OPERATIONAL Audacious-class carrier...
Definitely not, it'd be the prematurely wisened & black-cowled Emperor Astrodragon as RN AA pounds the IJN out of the sky & Allied aircraft thread through the CAP & AA to send the KB to the bottom of the Pacific
With the KB & Invasion Fleet having joined up, that's going to concentrate their CAP but make for an awful lot of targets to cover. TF16's strike could potentially sink or severely damage a good proportion of the IJN's carrier force.
With Enterprise remaining unspotted & the remnants of TF17 in close with TF16, they should put up a formidable defence. Hopefully if any of the US carriers cops it, it'll be the damaged Yorktown & the presence of 3 carriers when they're expecting 2 confuses the incoming strike.
I'm not sure Lyster's going to have the luxury of waiting for night-time to launch his first strike if Force Z is only 180 miles away from the combined Japanese fleets. He could launch from the Implacable & Bulwark but keep Audacious in reserve for later (or vice versa) & field a strong CAP. There's a potential for a damaging strike from the IJN CVL's first though... Perhaps one of the older carriers is about to catch a Japanese torpedo?
BTW, wasn't there an ASV Spearfish in radar contact with the main body earlier?
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