The Whale has Wings

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23 November 1939

usertron2020 said:
BTW? By the time of Philippine Sea, US CAP was damned deadly.
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Usertron, agreed. I do consider the CAP at the Marianas Turkey Shoot to be the bench-mark for such things. In case it got lost in the shuffle, I was musing that against a strike like this, more AA wouldn't be enough. To really butcher this kind of anti-shipping strike you need radar, good fighters, and the CIC to tie the two together. AA has its role, but interception makes such a difference. As Friedman pounded into my rather hard head, with CIC & Radar it was possible to concentrate carriers together and achieve concentration of offensive and defensive power sufficient to offset the risk of concentrating assets.

MattII said:
Actually, 21% of their torpedo bombers and 14% of their dive bombers to date, but there will be more that won't make it home, and yet more that won't be able to take off again once they have (added to those from Midway that have suffered the same fate). Does that add up to 1/4? Possibly for the Vals, but I suspect more like 1/3 for the Kates.
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MattII, I was counting all strikes and all aircraft, and rounding.

OOB
117 Nakajima B5N torpedo bombers
101 Aichi D3A dive bombers
130 Mitsubishi A6M fighters
CA Tone & Chikuma search aircraft (atleast 8)
(348 planes)

0430
Initial Attack on Midway Launched
48 Nakajima B5N torpedo bombers
48 Aichi D3A dive bombers
40 Mitsubishi A6M Zero fighters - escort
CAP
29 Mitsubishi A6M Zero fighters
8 CA search aircraft

0600 Initial Attack on Midway Intercepted
Losses
10 Nakajima B5N torpedo bombers
7 Aichi D3A dive bombers
7 Mitsubishi A6M Zero fighters
+ unknown number damaged

0700 1st Wave Midway Attack on KB
CAP losses
2 Mitsubishi A6M Zero fighters

~ 0830 Japanese Anti-Shipping Strike Launched
50 Nakajima B5N torpedo bombers
45 Aichi D3A dive bombers
40 Mitsubishi A6M Zero fighters

0920 TF17 Detects Japanese Strike
IJN Losses
23 Nakajima B5N torpedo bombers
15 Aichi D3A dive bombers
2 Mitsubishi A6M Zero fighters

----
Casualties to date
33 Nakajima B5N torpedo bombers - 28.2%
22 Aichi D3A dive bombers - 21.8%
11 Mitsubishi A6M fighters - 8.5%

55 of 218 strike aircraft - 25.2%

Remaining Aircraft
84 Nakajima B5N torpedo bombers
79 Aichi D3A dive bombers
119 Mitsubishi A6M fighters

I would say that your estimate of the Japanese being down at least a quarter of their Kates and a quarter of their Vals was a reasonable one. Frankly, depending on battle damage and the effect of casualties on unit cohesion, the Japanese may well be down about half their striking power for the foreseeable future. Not really a fair trade for the damage to Yorktown, Ticonderoga, and the Midway strike package, but nothing to be sneered at.


stevep & ModernKiwi - Many thanks for the input. What I was thinking about was that it would make sense the scouting element fell out of favor, as Gannt notes. However, at Philippine Sea, although the IJN had a definite drop-off in quality, they still represented a real and significant threat to the USN. That being the case, I was unsure what balance they would strike between their new fighters, their new dive-bombers, and their new torpedo-bombers. Of course, the more I think about it, the more naive it seems to be to speak in terms of air-groups as fixed.

Gannt the chartist said:
They changed the air groups, for the US it was swapping out the scout squadron for a fighter squadron and with the Essex and their larger capacity the increase was all fighters. When they started running out of big thinks to sink it was a Hellcat, Corsair, Avenger mix with the Corsair as fighter bomber, lots of them.
[Snip]
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Many thanks Gannt. I didn't have time to do an in-depth check on the composition in mid-44. The only air-group numbers that stand out in my mind are the Midways (presumably immediately post-war) with a roughly 50/50 balance between Corsairs and Helldivers, and the early war balance of a squadron each of fighters, dive-bombers, scouts/dive-bombers, and torpedo planes. I understand the logic of each but I wasn't sure what logic prevailed in mid-44.
 

usertron2020

Donor
I seem to recall that prior to the invasion of Kyushu it was planned to have some of the Essexes topped off with nothing BUT fighters!:cool:
 

DD951

From what I've been able to find out, the 'standard' Essex-class airgroup was 36 fighters, 36 dive-bombers, & 18 torpedo bombers, but as others have mentioned, some carriers traded a squadron of dive-bombers for extra fighters in 1944-45, & furthermore, when the Helldiver turned out to be a lemon, some airgroups landed them & put their pilots in Hellcats as 'fighter-bomber' squadrons
 

usertron2020

Donor
DD951 said:
From what I've been able to find out, the 'standard' Essex-class airgroup was 36 fighters, 36 dive-bombers, & 18 torpedo bombers, but as others have mentioned, some carriers traded a squadron of dive-bombers for extra fighters in 1944-45, & furthermore, when the Helldiver turned out to be a lemon, some airgroups landed them & put their pilots in Hellcats as 'fighter-bomber' squadrons
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Also, these are ACTIVE aircraft. Spares added up to about 100!
 

23 November 1939

23 November 1939 said:
t was possible to concentrate carriers together and achieve concentration of offensive and defensive power sufficient to offset the risk of concentrating assets.
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Not sure what possessed me to use concentrate three times in half a sentence:p.

usertron2020 said:
I seem to recall that prior to the invasion of Kyushu it was planned to have some of the Essexes topped off with nothing BUT fighters!:cool:
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The sound you just heard was my eyes popping out. That would have been something to behold. A full deckload of nothing but Corsairs and Hellcats. A quick check indicates that by '45 the light carrier air groups were going pure fighter, in a move described as freeing up the Essexes for the attack role. An Essex as a fighter carrier is... impressive. Of course, with that many hulls they could afford to specialize. What might the designation have been - CVF?

DD951 said:
From what I've been able to find out, the 'standard' Essex-class airgroup was 36 fighters, 36 dive-bombers, & 18 torpedo bombers, but as others have mentioned, some carriers traded a squadron of dive-bombers for extra fighters in 1944-45, & furthermore, when the Helldiver turned out to be a lemon, some airgroups landed them & put their pilots in Hellcats as 'fighter-bomber' squadrons
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Hmm. Sounds about right, although, as you say, 'standard.' First strike on Yamato, by five CVs and four CVLs, included 132 fighters, 50 bombers, and 98 torpedo planes. This strike, of course, does not indicate what overall fighter levels may have been maintained, but it does raise an interesting question as to whether Helldivers were traded for Avengers or just not sent out. In either case, it is ironic given that the author of the source listing these figures, notes the distrust of aerial torpedoes (I am aware of the flaws of the Torpedo Station and I thought I was aware of the technical shortcomings of the MkXIII, but I had not appreciated just how bad things were before the plywood stabilizers were added. Not just underwhelming but erratic and fragile). Which, bringing us full-circle to this timeline, bodes even more ill for the Devastators.
 

usertron2020

Donor
01 September 1939

You could have thrown in some Bearcats to that mix by the time of Olympic, as well as land-based (from Okinawa) P-51s. By the time of Coronet, even (basing out of Kyushu) P-80s!:eek: If anyone thinks Shooting Stars wouldn't be needed, think of all those land-based Baka Bombs.:(
 

MattII

23 November 1939 said:
MattII, I was counting all strikes and all aircraft, and rounding.
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However you missed out the aircraft from the Junyo, Hiyo and Ryuho, which amounts to another 45 Zeros, 52 D3As and 27 B5Ns. They aren't with the rest of course, but can be used to patch the holes.
 
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PMN1

DD951 said:
From what I've been able to find out, the 'standard' Essex-class airgroup was 36 fighters, 36 dive-bombers, & 18 torpedo bombers, but as others have mentioned, some carriers traded a squadron of dive-bombers for extra fighters in 1944-45, & furthermore, when the Helldiver turned out to be a lemon, some airgroups landed them & put their pilots in Hellcats as 'fighter-bomber' squadrons
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I've seen a few refernces to the late war composition being 70+ fighters, 30 dive bombers and 15 or so torpedo bombers.
 

23 November 1939

usertron2020 said:
01 September 1939

You could have thrown in some Bearcats to that mix by the time of Olympic, as well as land-based (from Okinawa) P-51s. By the time of Coronet, even (basing out of Kyushu) P-80s!:eek: If anyone thinks Shooting Stars wouldn't be needed, think of all those land-based Baka Bombs.:(
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Oh, why do you keep saying such wonderful things? F8Fs and P-80s.
Two thoughts on P80s and Bakas. How many aircraft capable of delivering Bakas would have survived Olympic, given that the Japanese apparently intended to commit everything they had left there. Also, would the P-80s have been integrated into the CAP? Not disputing, I just know nothing about the integration of USAAF aircraft into USN operations.

Now, if the F7F could just make an appearance...

MattII said:
However you missed out the aircraft from the Junyo, Hiyo and Ryuho, which amounts to another 45 Zeros, 52 D3As and 27 B5Ns. They aren't with the rest of course, but can be used to patch the holes.
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True, I did discount them. A useful pool of aircraft to draw upon if necessary. So the Japanese are capable of adding 124 aircraft from three light carriers, two with the main body and one with the invasion force. Of course, who makes the decision to strip those other two forces of their air-cover, and when?

I was thinking narrowly in terms of the damage to the strike groups of the Kido Butai and how effective they are likely to be over the next 24 hours or so. While the KB has not shot its bolt, it does seem that the strike on TF17 is likely to be the most effective of the battle. Nothing ground-shaking in that, but still interesting to consider. We will have to see how the USN strikes do.

Of course, the most immediately interesting aspect of the KB ballet is how their CAP will compare to TF17's. I am biased, but I suspect that if any kind of coordination can be achieved between squadrons, the Japanese will be short a few carriers soon enough.
 

voodoomaster

Astrodragon said:
1,000,000

Wow. And it started off as such a cute little tiny whale...:D:eek:
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StarWhale.png


Indeed have a star whale instead
 

sonofpegasus

If the Rh task force hit the KB overnight what chance the airgroups from the Japanes CVL's are sent to try and even the score in the morning,range and sightsings permitted.

Congratulations on 1,M vists it truly is a Whale of a Tale:D:):D
 

AndyF

sonofpegasus said:
If the Rh task force hit the KB overnight what chance the airgroups from the Japanes CVL's are sent to try and even the score in the morning,range and sightsings permitted.

Congratulations on 1,M vists it truly is a Whale of a Tale:D:):D
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That's assuming that they have enough functional aircraft left;
A) After the US first strike hits,
B) If there's anything left of the KB after a second strike from the as-yet undetected TF16,
C) If there's any functioning Japanese carriers left at all after Force Z carries out a night strike on the KB remnants and/or the CVL's with the invasion fleet. Unless the Japanese retreat as fast as they can just after dusk.

Dawn on the next morning might break with the IJN retaining nothing by way of naval aviation except from shore bases... possibly minus the world's largest big-gun reef too! :D
 

MattII

23 November 1939 said:
So the Japanese are capable of adding 124 aircraft from three light carriers, two with the main body and one with the invasion force. Of course, who makes the decision to strip those other two forces of their air-cover, and when?
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Well there's only 11 zeros been shot down, and the D3As and B5Ns are useless for air defence, so the KB is more more likely to draw on the bombers the bombers, and it's less likely they'll be missed.

AndyF said:
Dawn on the next morning might break with the IJN retaining nothing by way of naval aviation except from shore bases... possibly minus the world's largest big-gun reef too! :D
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Oh they'll probably retain the Junyo, Hiyo and Ryuho, those three are too far out of formation to be really targeted in a night-strike, and provide only limited CAP.
 
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