South EAST of Midway? Why would they have overshot the island? I thought the invasion force was supposed to be behind the attacking force, moving forward once the defences have been cleared out.Proper maps will have to wait on the book...
Roughly...
TF16/17 are east (NE IIRC) of Midway
KB is west of Midway.
Force Z is south(ish) of Midway
Invasion force/Main Body is SE(ish) of Midway.
The Whale has Wings
- Thread starter Astrodragon
- Start date
- Status
Sorry, typo - they are W/SW, currently trying to join up
Just checking on the locations but based on your last post AD both KB and TF 16/17 are around 200 miles South of their OTL Position if they are West and East of Midway Island?
Last edited:
No, they are pretty much as OTL - I was just trying to give a better idea of roughly where they were, some people seem to be having problems.
geez, its only a little ocean, surely you can all keep it all in your heads..??
so TF 16/17, KB and Midway are the points of inverted equilateral triangle sides roughly 200nm at dawn KB and the TF closing on each other and on Midway (somewhat) during the morning. At dawn Force Z on a diagonal from KB through Midway extending a further 250 nm SW and the main body off to the left somewhere.
By nightfall that puts Force Z roughly on the latitude and east of Midway probably quite close to the island
Which mainly proves that charts are useful and its a slow afternoon
By nightfall that puts Force Z roughly on the latitude and east of Midway probably quite close to the island
Which mainly proves that charts are useful and its a slow afternoon
Bloody dragons (& you, Gannt)...No, they are pretty much as OTL - I was just trying to give a better idea of roughly where they were, some people seem to be having problems.
Geez, its only a little ocean, surely you can all keep it all in your heads..??
I knew what I meant, I just wasn't able to communicate it properly; what do you want, grid co-ordinates?
Nagumo is NW of Midway, the Invasion fleet is W/SW of the Island, the Transport fleet is between the two (W of Midway) & trying to rendezvous with the Invasion fleet.
TF16 & 17 are NE of Midway about 30 miles apart from each other.
So those 4 are as OTL-ish.
Force Z is coming from the general direction of Johnston Island/Atoll (roughly SSE).
There, now is everyone happy?
TF16 & TF17 both still missed the sub patrol line, although the (by now very confused if we're anything to go by) Japanese think TF16 is off to the SE closing from Pearl. They have no clue that Force Z is even in the same ocean as they are... or that TF16 is close by with a strike on the way!
17:30 hrs or thereabouts, yes they are & not for me it's not!
Edit: ninja'd by Wietze; nice map
Last edited:
its ok just killing time till the USN gets to KB.
And I have started to channel Jomini, triangles, triangles
What it also means is the three carrier forces end the day within 150-175 miles of each other. At dusk barring sightings that have not occurred Nagumo is likely to have launched and recovered a second strike at the US TF and not yet know of Force Z presence.
If Lyster gets good intel on the composition of the IJN force from the US searches he may feel comfortable in interposing himself between the US and IJN positions overnight. Nothing in the IJN force he can't take in a surface action and it would put his air search radars across the track of any strike from KB towards the US TF in the morning.
Not sure what the discrimination of direction finding is in this era but if he is close enough to Midway he may be able to transmit his intentions using the USN comms people he has on board and have the location close enough to the island to mask it.
And I have started to channel Jomini, triangles, triangles
What it also means is the three carrier forces end the day within 150-175 miles of each other. At dusk barring sightings that have not occurred Nagumo is likely to have launched and recovered a second strike at the US TF and not yet know of Force Z presence.
If Lyster gets good intel on the composition of the IJN force from the US searches he may feel comfortable in interposing himself between the US and IJN positions overnight. Nothing in the IJN force he can't take in a surface action and it would put his air search radars across the track of any strike from KB towards the US TF in the morning.
Not sure what the discrimination of direction finding is in this era but if he is close enough to Midway he may be able to transmit his intentions using the USN comms people he has on board and have the location close enough to the island to mask it.
Garrison
Donor
Have to remember that second Japanese strike, assuming they pin down the remaining US carriers and actually hit the right target, is probably going to be much smaller after what the US strike is about to do to the KB.
it might actually prove relatively ineffectual and help keep Nagumo's attention firmly in the wrong direction until its too late.
Or of course if Force Z feels compelled to launch a daylight strike they might arrive over the KB to find pretty much everything's been sent out against the Americans.
it might actually prove relatively ineffectual and help keep Nagumo's attention firmly in the wrong direction until its too late.
Or of course if Force Z feels compelled to launch a daylight strike they might arrive over the KB to find pretty much everything's been sent out against the Americans.
usertron2020
Donor
I am pointing out that some are suggesting that eventually Nagumo will decide to dismiss the sub report. I thought so too, until I realized this: The ultimate confirmation of the sub's report has taken placed by virtue of the fact that it has disappeared. Nagumo might decide that the sub was wrong, and the mysterious carrier just outdistanced the sub, but the sub being lost (he can hardly assume that the sub just suddenly suffered a broken radio at just such a crucial moment) is something else again.
Derek Pullem
Donor
Maybe - but isn't the most likely situation it was a escort carrier ferrying planes (from Nagumo's POV) and the sub died from its escorts (which the sub mistook for cruisers)
But how often would a sub be expected to report? Every radio transmission gives a location, and subs are supposed to be stealthy. Moreover, how well do radio messages necessarily carry? Surely some get lost. And werent japanese radios not the best, anyway?
It's not been mentioned whether Nagumo has that information, UT. Fleet Command (Yamamoto on the Yamato) has decided that it was the 3rd US carrier the sub spotted, that the Transport fleet had likely been found & ordered them to join up with the Invasion fleet for support.
Doubtless if the sub doesn't answer the call for clarification within 6 hours or so, they might reassess the situation & conduct a more thorough search. What they'll make of it if they find all of Force Z is unknown, although they'll probably dismiss it as an error to begin with.
See above, Derek. They don't think it's an escort carrier.
By this time, German subs could send & receive radio messages on certain frequencies while submerged but above 50 feet or so, Dathi. I can't confirm that the Japanese had that ability, but it's reasonable to assume that the Germans passed that information along, so maybe they could too.
As for reporting; I'd say if the sub didn't respond to the message within 6 to 9 hours, it would be regarded as suspicious. Anyone have a better estimate?
Derek Pullem
Donor
It's not been mentioned whether Nagumo has that information, UT. Fleet Command (Yamamoto on the Yamato) has decided that it was the 3rd US carrier the sub spotted, that the Transport fleet had likely been found & ordered them to join up with the Invasion fleet for support.
Doubtless if the sub doesn't answer the call for clarification within 6 hours or so, they might reassess the situation & conduct a more thorough search. What they'll make of it if they find all of Force Z is unknown, although they'll probably dismiss it as an error to begin with.
See above, Derek. They don't think it's an escort carrier.
By this time, German subs could send & receive radio messages on certain frequencies while submerged but above 50 feet or so, Dathi. I can't confirm that the Japanese had that ability, but it's reasonable to assume that the Germans passed that information along, so maybe they could too.
As for reporting; I'd say if the sub didn't respond to the message within 6 to 9 hours, it would be regarded as suspicious. Anyone have a better estimate?
Andy - just because Yamamoto decided it was a fleet carrier at 0600 does not mean he will still believe it at 0900 when too many planes arrive from the West and not the South.
Intel only lasts until the next update.
usertron2020
Donor
Except all the escort carriers were either fighting the U-Boats or convoying aircraft to New Caledonia. Force Z is WAY out of position for any "ferrying" missions.
BTW? An escort carrier's speed compared to a fleet CV's speed makes it very easy to distinguish the two.
Last edited:
usertron2020
Donor
If the same problems occur for the air strikes as OTL the US aircraft will be coming from a 180 degree circle everywhere from the NE around to the SW!
usertron2020
Donor
First message from Guadacanal:
"Large force of ships entering sound. Unknown number or type. What can they be?"
Second message from Guadacanal:
"Enemy force overwhelming. We will defend our posts to the death."
Third message from Guadacanal:
None
The radio transmitter was destroyed in the first salvoes of naval gunfire
That Japanese submarine's silence is thunderous.
"Large force of ships entering sound. Unknown number or type. What can they be?"
Second message from Guadacanal:
"Enemy force overwhelming. We will defend our posts to the death."
Third message from Guadacanal:
None
The radio transmitter was destroyed in the first salvoes of naval gunfire
That Japanese submarine's silence is thunderous.
The thing about the sub report is that the IJN would assume thats its one of the 4-6 US carriers that exist and they known 2 at least are at Point Luck. Any number of issues would prevent the sub reporting.
Stick in the size of the US strike incoming and thats 3-4 vs 5 IJN CV and 2 US Already gone.
It would be an incredible leap of faith to assume that a large proportion of the RN inventory has traveled half way around the world to get there just in time so until Lyster starts up and they see and identify UK a/c aircraft they are golden.
Stick in the size of the US strike incoming and thats 3-4 vs 5 IJN CV and 2 US Already gone.
It would be an incredible leap of faith to assume that a large proportion of the RN inventory has traveled half way around the world to get there just in time so until Lyster starts up and they see and identify UK a/c aircraft they are golden.
usertron2020
Donor
Proper maps will have to wait on the book...
Roughly...
TF16/17 are east (NE IIRC) of Midway
KB is west of Midway.(1)
Force Z is south(ish) of Midway
Invasion force/Main Body is SW(ish) of Midway.
If as OTL, these positions are indeed correct.
1) What is confusing is the position of the KB. OTL the KB started at a position roughly WNWW of Midway after emerging from the storm front she had been passing through for much of the trip, and finished (depending on who and where you mean "finished"-*glug-glug*
) between due WSWW to due W.- Status