The Whale has Wings

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I did raise the issue of how this would affect Commonwealth deployments to the RAF a few pages back, but it didn't really spark anything iirc.

I personally think it would be rather huge.

There were rather a lot of NZ servicemen (tens of thousands) deployed directly to the UK serving either in the regular RAF or NZ officered RAF squadrons, who, if there was a viable British alternative in the Pacific may have in part been deployed there. With a viable FAA and ealier/better Australian based manufacture of good fighters I certainly think a lot more will stay local

I suspect IOTL a lot went to the UK because Bomber Command was, as said by other people, the only game really in town for several years. This is not going to be true ATL. IOTL I think that once the US manufactured planes came on stream ( I guess 43 onwards?) most NZ trained aircrew stayed in the Pacific and fought under US command, for the RNZAF
 
I did raise the issue of how this would affect Commonwealth deployments to the RAF a few pages back, but it didn't really spark anything iirc.

I personally think it would be rather huge.

There were rather a lot of NZ servicemen (tens of thousands) deployed directly to the UK serving either in the regular RAF or NZ officered RAF squadrons, who, if there was a viable British alternative in the Pacific may have in part been deployed there. With a viable FAA and ealier/better Australian based manufacture of good fighters I certainly think a lot more will stay local

I suspect IOTL a lot went to the UK because Bomber Command was, as said by other people, the only game really in town for several years. This is not going to be true ATL. IOTL I think that once the US manufactured planes came on stream ( I guess 43 onwards?) most NZ trained aircrew stayed in the Pacific and fought under US command, for the RNZAF

There was a big difference in composition between the RAF at the beginning of the war and the RAF at the end of the war, much of it caused by politics.

At the beginning, the RAF was seen as a single entity, with many members from the Dominions serving in it, many at senior ranks - look at Parkes, for example. When the war started, the RAF in the UK was by far the biggest operational area, AND it had all the modern planes, so there was a obvious draw for pilots from, say, Australia. As the RAF expanded, there was more push for 'Dominion' groups.

Now the RAAF is a bit stronger this time (its still tiny compared to the RAF), but as the forces grow in the East more Australian and NZ personell will return to help fill them.

The situation, bot militarily and politically in the Far East and Australasia will not be the same this time.

Australian butterflies might fly upside down, but they are still butterflies...:D
 
Here are some figures about the RNZAF, that I’ve gleaned from a random website, which I have not been able to verify as yet. All text is the author’s

http://militarianz.freeforums.org/how-well-did-the-rnzaf-do-in-ww2-t582.html

Approx 58,000 New Zealanders served in either the RNZAF or the RAF
Approx 15,000 RNZAF aircrew and ground staff served in the Pacific.
Approx 4,000 were killed and 600 were taken prisoner.

Europe – 3285 were killed
Pacific – 345 were killed, 58 wounded, four were captured – of whom 3 died as POWs.

Battle of Britain, (from July to September 1940) one pilot in 12 in the RAF was a Kiwi.

Approx 7,000 RNZAF aircrew trained under the Empire Air Training Scheme in Canada.

New Zealand aircrew served in every squadron of Bomber Command (Sgt Jimmy Ward in 75 Squadron and Squadron leader Leonard Trent in 487 Squadron)
Bomber Command eventually totalled 100 Squadrons.
75 Squadron and 487 Squadron were distinctively New Zealand Squadrons.
75(NZ) Squadron became one of the most distinguished squadrons in Bomber Command.
125,000 aircrew flew for Bomber Command and some 73,000 became casualties (55,000 killed) – a 60% loss rate.
RNZAF aircrew suffered more losses over Europe than the entire Gallipoli campaign.

I believe the number of New Zealand aircraft shot down was 684.


Squadrons of the RNZAF operating from the United Kingdom and the South Pacific flew more than 40,000,000 miles during war.
They were airborne for 257,100 operational hours on 93,750 sorties.
In combat they destroyed 312 enemy aircraft, probably destroyed 40 and damaged 113.

RNZAF squadrons in the United Kingdom flew 19,000,000 miles.
98,300 operational hours on 39,080 sorties.
Destroyed 209 enemy aircraft, probably destroyed 25 and damaged 97.
Destroyed 224 flying bombs.
NZ torpedo-bomber squadron sunk 11 enemy ships of 38,676 tons, damaged another 11 totalling 36,898 tons, as well as two escort vessels.
As part of the strike wing, the squadron also shared in the sinking of 19 ships (67,097 tons), and 12 escort vessels, and damaged 18 ships (41,291 tons) and 49 escorts.

RNZAF squadrons operating in the South and South-West areas flew 21,468,000 miles.
158,800 operational hours on 54,670 sorties.
Destroyed 103 Japanese aircraft, 99 of which were accounted for by fighters, probably destroyed 15, and damaged 16.
Shipping destroyed was conservatively given at 200, which were mostly barges and other small craft, with a further 300 claimed as probably destroyed. Two were probably damaged.
 
One thing that I am sure will make the NZ contingent happier is that a certain NZ Air Marshal who was badly treated by the Air Minsitry in OTL is going to do a lot better and be AOIC in the Far East by late 1941....;)
 
One thing that I am sure will make the NZ contingent happier is that a certain NZ Air Marshal who was badly treated by the Air Minsitry in OTL is going to do a lot better and be AOIC in the Far East by late 1941....;)


Heh, well if you can do that and give him a statue on Trafalgar Square as well!

Maybe up on the Column, getting a piggyback ride from Nelson?;)
 
One thing that I am sure will make the NZ contingent happier is that a certain NZ Air Marshal who was badly treated by the Air Minsitry in OTL is going to do a lot better and be AOIC in the Far East by late 1941....;)

Sir Keith Park served ably in Egypt and Malta during dire times. Shouldn't he be cloned? Service in the CBI was considered the end of the supply chain, and the armpit.
 
Of course, fewer RAAF and RNZAF personell in the UK does mean less pressure on the beer supply during the war...:D

However if they are in the Far East it may mean that the RN Brewery Ship never gets as far as the US Marines...sorry about that, CalBear! :D:D
 
Sir Keith Park served ably in Egypt and Malta during dire times. Shouldn't he be cloned? Service in the CBI was considered the end of the supply chain, and the armpit.

He will be at Malta, then goes out to the Far East. It isnt considered such a dead-end job this time, and he is seen as the ideal man to sort out the air situation there and work with the Australian and NZ governments.
Remember, the Australians have been building modern fighters for a while now, and they arent getting west of Malaya...:)
 
9th June

The King of Norway and the Norwegian government arrives back in Britain on the heavy cruiser HMS Devonshire. The exiled government has not surrendered, and will carry on the fight from Britain.

The last Hurricanes in Norway follow a SeaLance guide out to HMS Illustrious at sea. It had been intended to destroy the planes in Norway, as they did not have the range to make it back to Britain, but fighters are in short supply, and three pilots have volunteered to attempt to land them on the carrier. The carrier heads into the wind at full power, making 32 knots, to make the landing as easy as possible. All three of the planes land successfully, and arrangements are made to fly out the rest of the planes on the following day. This will be the final convoy to leave Norway.

10th June

The remaining ten Hurricanes and nine Gladiators are led to Illustrious. As on the previous day, the landings are made with no incidents other than to increase the grey hairs on the RAF pilots. The planes on the deck make it difficult for Illustrious to fly off cover, so the air duties are being handled by HMS Colossus and HMS Mars. The last of 30,000 allied troops, and over 5,000 Norwegian volunteers (who will form the corps of the Free Norwegian forces) are evacuated. The Norwegian forces left in the country have orders to surrender as soon as the King and parliament have reached safety.

The convoy is spotted by the Luftwaffe, and six He-111's attack it later that day . In a final end to the Norwegian conflict, the FAA enacts some revenge by shooting down five of the bombers for no loss.

The final naval tally for the Norwegian operation is :
Royal Navy
One light fleet carrier
Two destroyers
A number of submarines and other light vessels such as A/S trawlers
A battleship, 3 cruisers and a number of other ships have been damaged.
Kriegsmarine
One Battlecruiser
One Pocket battleship
Two heavy cruisers
Two light cruisers
Nine destroyers
At least six submarines plus other light vessels

The Royal navy is quietly happy at this result. The Kriegsmarine has been rendered almost non-operational for relatively minor losses. Although a number of warships have been damaged (some quite severely) by the Luftwaffe, the presence or intervention of the FAA has saved more damage. Indeed, if allowed to press their attacks without fighter opposition, it is considered very likely that some of the damaged ships would have been sunk. Indeed, apart from the Graf Zeppelin and the Bismark, both of which have started working up, the only operational ships in the Kriegsmarine are nine destroyers.

The situation for the Navy gets worse, however, as Mussolini finally declares war on the allies. Fortunately HMS Glorious has safely delivered her fighters and convoy to Malta so the exposed island fortress, so close to Italy, has at least some fighter protection. Fortunately the ending of the Norwegian campaign means there are heavy ships available, although due to damage and losses during Dunkirk, and the need to keep forces in home waters, there is a shortage of light ships, particularly destroyers. Ships are also needed to cover the evacuation of British troops from France.

11th June

In the Mediterranean, the Italian air force raids Malta. One Gladiator is lost on the ground. SM79 bombers escorted by Mc200 fighters attack Grand Harbour and two of the airfields. The Italian fighters are small planes with some resemblance to the Goshawk, manoeuvrable but slower and far less heavily armed. The defenders shoot down 3 Mc200 fighters and 3 of the SM79 bombers for the loss of 1 Goshawk shot down and one forced to land. On Gladiator was also damaged.

Status and location of RN major warships as of 11 June

Home Fleet : Illustrious(CV), Victorious(CV), Colossus(CVL), Mars(CVL), Barham(BB), Resolution(BB), Repulse(BC), Renown(BC), Rodney(BB)
Gibraltar : Ark Royal(CV), Glorious(CV), Hood(BC), Resolution(BB), Valiant(BB)
Alexandria : Courageous(CV), Malaya(BB), Royal Sovereign(BB), Ramilles(BB)
Far East : Eagle(CVL), HMAS Melbourne
West Indies : Hermes (CVL)
Convoy duty (Atlantic) : Vengeance(CVL), Glory(CVL), Activity(CVE), Revenge(BB)
Training : Furious(CVL)
Working up : Implacable(CV) (commissioned in April), Indefatigable(CV) (commissions in June) Ocean(CVL) (Commissions in June),KGV(BB)(commissions in June)
Repair : Formidable (CV)(torpedo damage), Warspite (BB)(minor bomb damage, some shell damage), Nelson(BB) (mine damage)
Refit : Queen Elizabeth(BB)
 
So the RN could have (assuming none get sunk or damaged) at least 7 CV's in service by the autumn with Formidable also potentially available when she completes her repairs.

(snigger)

It will be interesting to see what the French Fleet does ITTL post surrender, Mers El Kebir and Dakar could be "interesting!" :D
 
over 5,000 Norwegian volunteers (who will form the corps of the Free Norwegian forces) are evacuated.

Not a big deal, unlike the Free French, these wouldn't be the Free Norwegian forces, they'd be the Norwegian Armed Forces in Exile, as the legitimate government had escaped.


As a side question, what happens to the remnants of the Royal Norwegian Navy Air Service? Is it incorporated into the RAF as 330 and 333 Squadrons iOTL, or do the FAA manage to snap it up?
 
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Home Fleet : Illustrious(CV), Victorious(CV), Colossus(CVL), Mars(CVL), Barham(BB), Resolution(BB), Repulse(BC), Renown(BC), Rodney(BB)[/FONT]
Gibraltar : Ark Royal(CV), Glorious(CV), Hood(BC), Resolution(BB), Valiant(BB)
Alexandria : Courageous(CV), Malaya(BB), Royal Sovereign(BB), Ramilles(BB)
Far East : Eagle(CVL), HMAS Melbourne
West Indies : Hermes (CVL)
Convoy duty (Atlantic) : Vengeance(CVL), Glory(CVL), Activity(CVE), Revenge(BB)
Training : Furious(CVL)
Working up : Implacable(CV) (commissioned in April), Indefatigable(CV) (commissions in June) Ocean(CVL) (Commissions in June),KGV(BB)(commissions in June)
Repair : Formidable (CV)(torpedo damage), Warspite (BB)(minor bomb damage, some shell damage), Nelson(BB) (mine damage)
Refit : Queen Elizabeth(BB)
Wonderful TL so far Astrodragon, it seems the RN is in much better shape then OTL allowing it to deal with the competing demands of the three theaters it will soon find itself fighting in.

A couple questions, firstly will see any CVE or CVL for the RCN? It will be expanding furiously as OTL to handle the North Atlantic convoy routes and some air support would greatly aid their ASW efforts. I despite being a Canadian don't really know that much in depth as regards the Canadian shipbuilding capacity during WW2 but there must have been at least the potential to convert some merchantmen into CVEs if not built some small flattops from scratch.

Secondly, am I being thick or what happened to HMS Indomitable? Wiki says she was launched March 1940 and commissioned Oct 1940.
 
So the RN could have (assuming none get sunk or damaged) at least 7 CV's in service by the autumn with Formidable also potentially available when she completes her repairs.

(snigger)

It will be interesting to see what the French Fleet does ITTL post surrender, Mers El Kebir and Dakar could be "interesting!" :D


They may need clean underwear...:) :)
 
Wonderful TL so far Astrodragon, it seems the RN is in much better shape then OTL allowing it to deal with the competing demands of the three theaters it will soon find itself fighting in.

A couple questions, firstly will see any CVE or CVL for the RCN? It will be expanding furiously as OTL to handle the North Atlantic convoy routes and some air support would greatly aid their ASW efforts. I despite being a Canadian don't really know that much in depth as regards the Canadian shipbuilding capacity during WW2 but there must have been at least the potential to convert some merchantmen into CVEs if not built some small flattops from scratch.

Secondly, am I being thick or what happened to HMS Indomitable? Wiki says she was launched March 1940 and commissioned Oct 1940.

Its mentioned earlier, Canada is building a CVE, and will be building 3 more (they are merchant ships, and are using old R & S class machinerly the RN has in store)
 
NZ pilots in BoB fighters

numbered only ~ 100 out of ~ 3000 (~2500 being UK Nationals)

FYI only ~ 20 Australians were flew with the Few despite a much larger population
so the Kiwis were indeed present in proportionally exceptional numbers

however not quite the ratios you suggest
 
One of the reasons Mers-el-Kebir turned out the way it did was that Gensoul couldn't believe that the British would go through with it.

However, in this scenario where naval air has an established reputation and more carriers available, a flypast or similar psychological warfare shenanigans could have interesting effects on French morale.
 
One of the reasons Mers-el-Kebir turned out the way it did was that Gensoul couldn't believe that the British would go through with it.

However, in this scenario where naval air has an established reputation and more carriers available, a flypast or similar psychological warfare shenanigans could have interesting effects on French morale.


Add the fact the bad info between British and French forces - just a clear message do it.
 
One of the reasons Mers-el-Kebir turned out the way it did was that Gensoul couldn't believe that the British would go through with it.

However, in this scenario where naval air has an established reputation and more carriers available, a flypast or similar psychological warfare shenanigans could have interesting effects on French morale.

He will have 2 fleet carriers with 96 strike aircraft sitting outside his harbour. That should help getting him to think in the right direction:D
 
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