The Whale has Wings

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The Allies do have a number of advantaged re Crete this time.

As long as they hold Libya, they have a stranglehold on air and sea cover south and west of Crete.

They have two carriers available for air support

They are going into Greece with a little more suspicion that it may all and badly.
 
The thousand Hurricanes were produced OTL by Gloster in their production facility to Sept. 1940. The facility TTL was busy with other things.

Plenty of other factories available, factory space wasnt an issue in 1937, the Shadow Factory program was one they got right. Its not like they HAVE to build them in any specific factory, that many planes (by the standards of the time) will need a new production line anyway.
 
23rd February


The British Foreign Secretary, Anthony Eden, arrived in Athens today with a senior military mission including Sir John Dill, CIGS, General Wavell, Admiral Cunningham and Air-Marshall Longmore. The main item for discussion with King George and his government is the question of British military aid to Greece.

There is some reluctance on the part of the Greeks to accept the help offered by Eden, on the grounds that insufficient British help might serve only to precipitate an attack by the Germans.

Eden's task is to reassure the Greeks that, although the forces being offered, which would have to be withdrawn from the army in North Africa, are all that Britain can spare at the moment, they are well-equipped and trained and will acquit themselves well.
Talks are well under way this evening, and look like lasting well into the night, with the Greeks insisting that they will fight with or without British help.

Representatives of the French Colonial governments of Syria and Lebanon are received, very quietly and unofficially, in Cairo where they have requested to talk with General Wavell and the Free French leaders.

In Italian Somaliland the main Italian forces defending the line of the Juba River have been defeated. The troops of General Alan Cunningham are now advancing very rapidly toward Mogadishu.

The first Corvette built in the USA as their part of the 'Ships for Bases' deal undergoes sea trials. Due to the still-delicate nature of the US state of neutrality, the British crew are dressed as civilians. Once the ship has passed trials, she will sail to Britain for Asdic to be fitted, and then work up. It is hoped to have the rest of the Corvette order completed during the next four months.


25th February


In Cairo Wavell decides against the projected bombing of the Ploesti oilfields/ First it would necessitate violating Turkish airspace, and secondly it might attract the attention of the Germans to a British presence in Greece

British Nigerian troops of the 11th African Division have begun to occupy Mogadishu after a day's lightning advance up the coast from Brava, 120 miles away. Meanwhile, the 12th African Division pushes up the river Juba towards the Abyssinian border town of Dolo.

A meeting is held in Washington, D.C., concerning defences in Hawaii. The minutes state that “in view of the Japanese situation the Navy is concerned with the security of the fleet in Hawaii, and apparently the new commander of the fleet there has made a check and reported it to Washington and the Secretary of the Navy has outlined the situation to the Secretary of War. Their particular point is the type of air force in Hawaii, particularly Pursuit. They are in the situation where they must guard against a surprise or trick attack. It is necessary for the fleet to be in anchorage part of the time and they are particularly vulnerable at that time. I do not feel that it is a possibility or even a probability, but they must guard against everything. We also have information regarding the possible use of torpedo planes.”

The Italian convoy which has been assembling in Naples is ready to sail, but the Italian Navy refuse to let it proceed until they have mustered a stronger escort. In particular they intend to wait a few more days to allow a number of submarines to get into position against possible RN attacks.

The results of the trials of the new Mosquito aircraft are encouraging enough for the MAP to place a production order before the trials are complete. The plane has the advantage of not needing much in the way of some limited resources, like aluminium, but will require a unique method of construction to be planned and implemented. DeHavilland promise that despite this they can get 60 produced by the end of the year.


26th February


After talks in Athens lasting all night and much of the day, the Greek Premier, Alexander Korizis, agrees in principle to Eden's proposal for British aid.

The Greek government agrees to accept a British force which at this stage is intended to be 100,000 men with suitable artillery and tank support. The Greeks are very reluctant to accept anything less since it would not be enough to fight the Germans off and would only encourage them to attack. The disposition of the British and Greek forces is also discussed. The British prefer a position along the line of the Aliakmon River but the Greeks are unwilling to give up the territory which this line does not cover.

A final decision is postponed until it can be discussed with General Blamey, the proposed Army commander.

A Free French Brigade is now outside Tripoli, having been resupplied. Tripoli itself is supplying part of 6th Australian Division. The Australians are happy to be in Tripoli and its entertainment; the authorities in Tripoli are rather less enthused.

As well as the 2nd Free French division which has been forming (the first Brigade of which is at Tripoli), the French have also been forming an Armoured Brigade. Unfortunately no tanks will be available for it for some months (the first tanks ordered from the USA by France are not expected until June). However there are considerable numbers of captured Italian tanks, including nearly a 100 Italian M13 tanks (not dissimilar to the US tanks on order) are available, over 80 having been captured in the Benghazi maintenance depot, as well as considerable number of lighter Italian tanks as well as spares and support equipment. These are offered to the French until the US tanks arrive, which will enable the Brigade to be operational in a few weeks
 
The thousand Hurricanes were produced OTL by Gloster in their production facility to Sept. 1940. The facility TTL was busy with other things.

I would suggest that due to the nature of the Hurricanes construction it may well be the easiest aircraft for any number of other manufacturers to pick up and make quickly, it's not like they have to adapt to making a stressed skin monocoque fuselage as seen on the Spitfire from a steel tube frame such as the Hurricane.
 
I'm looking at the various options of getting an Africa Korps involved without just sinking it as it arrives (tempting thouth it would be to have Rommell swim ashore and be captured by the French...:) Its proving a bit more difficult than I thought.

To be honest, why do you need an Africa Korps? To be honest, yf Hitler moves to fully occupy France and dismantle the Vichy regime, he's going to need those troops and more to do that, and also do things like occupy Corsica.
 
Most of the senior Ministers in the British government are Secretaries of State for X, and enabling legislation is conventionally always written in the form "The Secretary of State may", without acknowledging that there are multiple Secretaries of State, to allow for smooth succession in an emergency.

That's very odd. I didn't know that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/eden_anthony.shtml

ETA: Ah, I see you made the change in the latest installment.
 
To be honest, why do you need an Africa Korps? To be honest, yf Hitler moves to fully occupy France and dismantle the Vichy regime, he's going to need those troops and more to do that, and also do things like occupy Corsica.

It's called building up the tension :D

Otherwise known as teasing you buggers reading this...:D:p:D
 
Does the navy get it's funding selling apples or cookies? Considering that the principle of a military providing it's own funds is counter to the principles of a democratic country, perhaps it is time to establish the precise hierarchy and define how authority, funding, and power is delegated in the new navy. When the story says "the FAA did this", who precisely said it? When I asked AD why the Fifth Sea Lord would ask the RAF to build a Merlin Whirlwind, he responded " What does the Fifth Sea Lord have to do with it?" Indeed, what does the head of the FAA, the man in charge, the man with power, authority, and a title have to do with the actions of the FAA? He's only in charge. If he's not in charge, who is?
Bur you are ruining the story with facts and logic, JL!
The thousand Hurricanes were produced OTL by Gloster in their production facility to Sept. 1940. The facility TTL was busy with other things.
Why do you keep raising the inconvenient facts, JL? Can't you see folks here are not interested in reason or historical facts! They just want the story! Never mind, that the author holds others to a different standa. If a TL about the Germans had this amount of handwavium the author here would be posting repeatedly about how absurd it was, such as 41 posts the author made in Der Manstein Kommt attacking even though that was better researched.
 
Bur you are ruining the story with facts and logic, JL!
Why do you keep raising the inconvenient facts, JL? Can't you see folks here are not interested in reason or historical facts! They just want the story! Never mind, that the author holds others to a different standa. If a TL about the Germans had this amount of handwavium the author here would be posting repeatedly about how absurd it was, such as 41 posts the author made in Der Manstein Kommt attacking even though that was better researched.
You waited until someone else disagreed with this TL before making a reappearance to be sarcastic and repeat your previous complaint about hypocrisy? I'd suggest following the previous advice given to you:
You don´t like this TL. Fine.

You say that you do not like this TL and the reasons why. Fine.

Others answer you that they do not think the same and that is not an "ASB" neither a "wank", and they do not think your reasons are really valid. Fine.

You say to all of them that they are wrong, and you are right. Improbable but not impossible.

The answer is that you are "trolling" ( is just one of the possibilities, just not the only one ), a maybe too exasperated, but quite logic answer.

Now at this point you have two chances:

1) Recognize that your PoV is not generally accepted here, and go along, and ignore this TL.

2) Start a fruitless ( and IMHO quite stupid ) "internet war" about how impossible this TL and how all are blind for not recognizing this truth ...

EDIT: I honestly think that you have NO RIGHT to tell the author where to put his TL ...
 


The first Corvette built in the USA as their part of the 'Ships for Bases' deal undergoes sea trials. Due to the still-delicate nature of the US state of neutrality, the British crew are dressed as civilians. Once the ship has passed trials, she will sail to Britain for Asdic to be fitted, and then work up. It is hoped to have the rest of the Corvette order completed during the next four months.
I thought the US turned their noses up at lowly corvettes, and refused to build anything smaller than a Destroyer Escort?

Obviously, this is an ATL, but I missed any change that could give rise to this.

Doing a quick google search, I found that the US borrowed Corvettes from the RN and RCN and ordered a few from Canadian yards, but didn't seem to have built their own.

The advantage, if they did build Corvettes, is you could build them all up and down the Great Lakes, for instance. I'm sure they're small enough to get through canals.

(OTL one of the submarine builders was on the Great Lakes, shipped them down the Mississippi. IIRC)
 
I thought the US turned their noses up at lowly corvettes, and refused to build anything smaller than a Destroyer Escort?

Obviously, this is an ATL, but I missed any change that could give rise to this.

Doing a quick google search, I found that the US borrowed Corvettes from the RN and RCN and ordered a few from Canadian yards, but didn't seem to have built their own.

The advantage, if they did build Corvettes, is you could build them all up and down the Great Lakes, for instance. I'm sure they're small enough to get through canals.

(OTL one of the submarine builders was on the Great Lakes, shipped them down the Mississippi. IIRC)


It was a different ships-for-bases deal.
The OTL destroyers were in a terrible state, they needed significant work before they could be even used, and even after that they were poor AS ships. With a bit less pressure this time, the British offered a different deal, the bases in exchange for the US building them some Corvettes and the new Frigates (while on paper this meant a delay, in fact the Corvettes arent in actual service much later if at all :p)
 
You waited until someone else disagreed with this TL before making a reappearance to be sarcastic and repeat your previous complaint about hypocrisy? I'd suggest following the previous advice given to you:
Here here!

Though now I think of it I may've been among the voices giving Astrodragon and the like similar admonishment on one or more of Blairwitch's TLs. :p

Equal opportunity scoldings for all thread-crashers, I say!

Folks seem to misunderstand both the post 1900 forum and my message. (Though I have to say that I think Expat has quite bit more insight into what I intended to say.)

I implicitly am merely trying to make two points.

First, that post 1900 allows for criticism. If the writer can't take legitimate criticism of any reasonable amount, then there is the writer's forum. That is why I cite the fact that Astrodragon has been one of the more vitriolic critics out there. Other TL writers have benefited fromcriticism--and in BW's case moved the thread to the writer's forum.

Second, that if Just Leo can't stand this time line for its dubious research and constant handwaving away of problems, then he should probably hang it up. Astrodragon's shown that he is unwilling to listen to criticism that would make this story realistic. For Just Leo to continue to offer well researched criticism is a waste of time. Astrodragon is not benefitting from Just Leo's well researched analysis, while Just Leo is just frustrating himself by his participation. As they, "You can lead a horse to water...."

Or as CalBear explained to Ovaron:
Allow me to point out, for the only time, that the Writer's Thread is NOT meant to be as rigorously peer reviewed as Pre/Post 1900 or FH. The discussion here is meant to discuss the quality of the story, not the probability of the plot line.

While the general Board standards apply here in regard to Holocaust denial, Nazi/neo-Nazi pandering, gleeful depiction of Genocide and the like, this is not the place for political debate or shouts of "ASB!".

I will close with the same statement that applies across the Board:

"If you don't like it, DON'T read it".

Take this seriously.

Me, I basically only read Just Leo's posts and the posts they pertain to at this point in this timeline, as I favor realistic ideas. Further, as I noted above, I feel that Just Leo is wasting his time posting these based on the lack of response. I could join him in pointing out numerous errors but that takes too much time.
 
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It was a different ships-for-bases deal.
The OTL destroyers were in a terrible state, they needed significant work before they could be even used, and even after that they were poor AS ships. With a bit less pressure this time, the British offered a different deal, the bases in exchange for the US building them some Corvettes and the new Frigates (while on paper this meant a delay, in fact the Corvettes arent in actual service much later if at all :p)
Right. Thank you.

What did you think of my idea of building them on the Great Lakes?
 
You waited until someone else disagreed with this TL before making a reappearance to be sarcastic and repeat your previous complaint about hypocrisy? I'd suggest following the previous advice given to you:

Now, lets not be hasty.

He might have had a temp ban or couldn't access a computer between then and now.
 

In Japan Foreign Minister Matsuoka Yosuke states that the white race must cede Oceania to the Asiatics. "This region has sufficient natural resources to support from 600 million to 800 million people. I believe we have a natural right to migrate there” says Matsuoka. This speech is not well received in US government circles or in Britain.


Hello Astro,

Is this from OTL?
 
Hello Astro,

Is this from OTL?
apparently. A quick google gave
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.etherington/1941/02/24.htm said:
February 24th, 1941
...
JAPAN: Tokyo: In the clearest statement yet on Japan's expansionist policy and the ideology behind it, foreign minister, Yosuke Matsuoka, today declared Japan's belief in its "natural right" to Oceania - the western Pacific, including Australia.
Speaking to the Japanese parliament he said: "I believe the white race must cede Oceania to the Asiatics." Mr Matsuoka said that the region has sufficient natural resources to support 600-800 million people. "I believe we have a natural right to migrate there," he said.
The name Oceania usually refers to the islands of the Pacific, but an Oceania for 600 million would also have to include Australasia."
 
And just quess what would have happend to the Australians and New Zealanders? Some how I doubt they'd have been put on ships to the UK, and I bet the Maori and Aborigine's wouldn't have fared any better.
 
And just quess what would have happend to the Australians and New Zealanders? Some how I doubt they'd have been put on ships to the UK, and I bet the Maori and Aborigine's wouldn't have fared any better.


This would have resulted in one of the biggest mass movements of humans ever - iirc this would be about 8.6 million all up, give or take. It is hard to see how this could be done by anyone quickly, Japan, US or otherwise without massive death. It would be as bad as the "lets send all the Jews to Madagascar" plan
 
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