The Western Children of Melqart (Story of Carthaginian Americas)
- Thread starter Dolan
- Start date
Well, I have the feeling they won't get the Nina... but they have the Santa Maria and the Pinta. If they would study them, they could acquire the technology able to travel in the East... albeit they seem so worried over whatever is "Roman" and such studies could be slower than may seem.
But, soon or later a new encounter between Spanish and Carthaginians will happen... hope they would succeed to understand a bit each other. Or this may end very bad (I don't know for who truth be told. The odds are so high from both sides...)
But, soon or later a new encounter between Spanish and Carthaginians will happen... hope they would succeed to understand a bit each other. Or this may end very bad (I don't know for who truth be told. The odds are so high from both sides...)
Dolan
Banned
Well, since we have Rodrigo Borgia as the Pope, and he's a Spanish by birth... And it is very well known how power hungry he was...
IOTL, he basically give Spain carte blanche on exploiting the New World, but here, instead of stone age "Primitives", there are "Demon-Worshiping Jews" present at the "New World", that already conveniently make a (mostly innocent) Priest a martyr by Crucifixion.
Not that the real Jews in Europe and Near East would be amused with the new development, seeing that the Canaanites and their Biblical False Gods returned. And let's not forget that taking Biblical Canaanite Gods as Demonic names in Judeo-Christian Demonology would meant People of The Judeo-Christian Old World going to literally think the Carthaginians being true Demon worshippers, especially with ritualistic human sacrifices and other "horrifying practices" kept intact due to Native Meso-and-South Americans doing the same thing...
Basically, to average Medieval Europeans, the Carthaginians are Nightmare people coming straight from the Bible.
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Aurantiacis
Gone Fishin'
It would be really great to have a map, but this timeline is very enjoyable and interesting, so supplemental material doesn't even to be needed
Dolan
Banned
Well, it will get to that point eventually, but basically, the Gadol-Gebel Carthaginians do end up being collections of Kingdoms and Aristocratic Republics spread around North and Central America, united by their shared Kanaani culture and religion, but just like Europe, they still have bloody wars between them as well.
The Carthaginians refers to South American civilization as Quechuans, since the Andean Civilizations being the most well organized and live in easily defensible areas that allows them to survive the initial bouts of Plague that practically made native Mesoamerican civilizations being easy prey to Carthaginian refugee-colonists. The early tech exchange and early introduction of Horses and Pigs also transform the Andean civilization from being limited to mountain range IOTL into being all over South America (to the point the references of Quechuan Pirates).
At the Frozen North, the Viking settlements at Greenland and Northeast Canada actually survived somewhat due to trade and raids with the Carthaginian States that, despite being often hostile with each others, the better Agriculture of the Carthaginians made the American Vikings able to survive long term settlement there. Of course, Carthaginians did confuse them with the Inuits (up to calling them Nunawia). Of course, Greenland ITTL still being considered as scamland in Europe, so the Christianized Nordic Kings end up thinking that those Pagan settlers must be already dead long ago... But they would be in for a surprise when worshippers of the Old Gods now have Carthaginian tech (due to trade and or raids), and might decide that helping the Southerlings against Christians would be better way to go.
Basically the Medieval Europeans will clutch their Bible for their worst nightmares turned out to be true.
I’m already invested just from the title alone. I’m enjoying it already, nice work.
I'm really enjoying the timeline, mainly the cultural interactions between the Carthaginians and Spaniards. Out of curiosity, though, since the Norse are still in the New World, shouldn't the Carthaginians be at least somewhat familiar with Christianity, if only very barely? Scandinavia by the time of the expeditions to Vinland was largely becoming more and more Christian - even Leif Erikson was Christian - and while it could definitely serve as a refuge for the followers of the old gods, it's likely that some Christians would settle in the new lands as well and retain their faith.
Still though, I'm definitely enjoying the timeline. I'm looking forward to seeing where things go from here.
Still though, I'm definitely enjoying the timeline. I'm looking forward to seeing where things go from here.
Dolan
Banned
Keep in mind that the Protagonist POV is from a young Aristocratic Lord living in Cuba, and there are no mass media yet.
Even the Northern Carthaginians would not think much about "weird nunawim Death-Cult" other than being a source of raised eyebrows (Vikings aren't exactly missionaries), and there will be further influx of Pagans there due to European persecutions.
To say that Lord Adonibal would knew things about Christianity before this is like asking a Cuban if they have seen Polar Bear running in the wild.
Ouch. I didn't realize this. I believed there was an exiled but unitary Carthaginian state...
You'll be surely more specific soon, but just to know, where exactly Columbus landed TTL and is possible to know the extension of such state in particular?
Dolan
Banned
Hmmm, yes the reference of having multiple polities was said rather made indirectly though, maybe I should made things clearer with next chapter.
1600 years is enough time for a political entity to spread, broken due to handful ambitious men trying to press their luck, and the political system of Tsur-Kubaim is a monarchy with a Malik / King on the top when Karthadast herself never have valid Kings after 480 BC (yet Hamilcar and his son Hannibal Barca all being accused to try to become Kings by the Council of One Hundred and Four, that was why they did not have full support from Carthage during their campaigns).
Sure, things drifted over time, and as the initial single polity being broken, strongmen and warlords started to build their own Kingdoms, while at the other, separate polities, councils of Aristocrats held on and keep being Republics.
Since I have read too many Medieval Fantasy novels (esp ASOIAF), I end up making the Protagonist coming from that background, but don't worry, there will be other Carthaginian polities in America that being a Republic out there.
raharris1973
Gone Fishin'
it's terrific. Really sketches out an imaginable surviving Phoenician based culture.
Ive got to say it- do these Carthaginians have breech loaded muskets and cannons? Coz those rodslingers and firethingies sound suspiciously like breech loaded muskets and cannons- especially wirh Adonibal’s commentary on Colombus’ muzzle loaded rodslingers and lack of firethingies. That is a HUGE tech disparity... not to mention the technological, virological, and demographic influences they must have had on Mesoamerican civilizations and vice versa. Incas with guns? Floating cities protected by artillery? Damn sons
An interesting thing to consider is that I'm sure the Carthaginians brought livestock with them to the New World. This means that not only have the natives already been exposed to Old World diseases, their livestock may have developed their own. This means you might have a "disease packet" that is equally devastating to both sides.