The War of 1812: Overwhelming United States victory.

Just what the title says. What ways can you think of this happening, and in what ways do you imagine the path of the US would change? I was envisioning a PoD involving much greater debt owed to the French during the Revolution, and therefore a greater affiliation with post-revolutionary France later...causing us to side with each other against England in 1812. Could this have changed America's views towards empire and imperialism? (Napoleon).

Brainstorming appreciated.
 
With Britain distracted militarily by Napoleon, further collaboration with France isn't really necessary- France itself, too, would have been tied up with Napoleon. I think instead just a stronger political and military leadership would have tipped the balance- especially if coupled with a lack of good leadership on the British/Canadian side. I know that American offensive operations in the first half of the war (actually more than half, but the part before Waterloo freed up British troops from Europe and hence the part most likely to have allowed an American victory) were largely bungled by their commanders (although most of my knowledge comes from Canadian histories of the war, and so is perhaps a little biased). There were also several turning points which were quite evenly matched and turned in Britain's favour mostly by flukes. I can name a few if you need help, I'll just need to look them up. I would say, however, that an overwhelming victory is unlikely- forces on both sides were pretty evenly matched. Therefore, an initial American victory would probably be met by a British counteroffensive from remaining North American bases farther north against American coastal cities, plus a reconquest of sorts up the St. Lawrence, after the Napoleonic Wars.

Aha! Perhaps if the American army was stronger by 1812! That might be the turning point you need, especially if it included better military leadership. A further hindrance to American offensives was the fact that they relied on poorly trained and equipped militiamen who vehemently adhered to their one-year tours of duty, often cutting offensives short before they made much headway.

Hope that helps, remember, I've got lots of Canadian propaganda here if you need more 'information'.

-John
 
If the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution allowed homesteading on the Western Frontier, and if the establishment hadn't tried to use their control of the money supply to create a deflation to bankrupt the Western Frontier farmers and steal their land, we would have had far denser settlement on the Western Frontier, the important one for the war of 1812.
The best way I can discuss monetary policy post Revolution is that the people that bought Continental or State money and bonds weren't paid in gold or silver as promised, sold them for a pittance, and then were taxed by the establishment to pay them in full, without being given the chance to use their continental or state bonds and money to pay those taxes.
A brilliant double bind.
 
POD Apr. 1813 Under direct orders from Secretary of War Armstrong Isaac Chauncy and Henry Dearborn launch a direct attack on Kingston, Upper Canada. The attack succeeds leading to the occupation of most of Upper Canada.

Winter 1813 Congress at the urging of the army and navy approves the construction of 13 first rated ships-of-the line(made from greenwood for fast construction). The greenwood fleet is to establish naval supremacy on the St. Lawrence long enough for Quebec to be conquered.
 
The British probably completely destroy the American navy and then economy in the rematch, and take Canada back plus substantial interest soon after Napoleon is defeated.
 
POD Apr. 1813 Under direct orders from Secretary of War Armstrong Isaac Chauncy and Henry Dearborn launch a direct attack on Kingston, Upper Canada. The attack succeeds leading to the occupation of most of Upper Canada.

Winter 1813 Congress at the urging of the army and navy approves the construction of 13 first rated ships-of-the line(made from greenwood for fast construction). The greenwood fleet is to establish naval supremacy on the St. Lawrence long enough for Quebec to be conquered.

That's cool...and about the American military being more developed by then...perhaps a change in the drafting of the Constitution (or whatever document governs these states in this universe) to allow for a standing army by that time? This would be difficult however...the few American politicians supporting a standing army at the time as I understand it were Federalists...which were also the body primarily opposed to further aggression against England. Hmmm...
 
The British probably completely destroy the American navy and then economy in the rematch, and take Canada back plus substantial interest soon after Napoleon is defeated.

This is a bit spammy but it has the right idea. The U.S. beating Britain totally in 1812 is much like Japan beating the U.S. totally in WWII, close to impossible. The difference in power is just far too large, and the U.S. of the time far too vulnerable to interdiction of its trade. A more powerful U.S. Navy or a more professional U.S. Army would only allow the U.S. to make some temperary gains until Napoleon is finished, then the Brits'll come back.

What you need is for Britain to be broken in Europe, say crazy Napoleonic Sealion succeeds. As the Royal Navy would need to be broken for this to succeed, it can allow the U.S. to take all they want from a prostrate Britain.
 
In 1812 the Americans were united (in opposing the British invasion, if not in invading Britain), had a functioning government with a functioning tax system, and a much deeper (as in extending farther west) economy. Britain tried raiding into the US and just burned some farmhouses and some government buildings.
British merchant marine losses from the war were far greater than American losses from the war. Remember, convoys reduce your ships by a third or more in logistical terms. A ship sitting in harbor isn't hauling anything.
Not to mention that the primary thing the ships were hauling was food, from America to Britain.
 

Stalker

Banned
In 1812 the Americans were united (in opposing the British invasion, if not in invading Britain), had a functioning government with a functioning tax system, and a much deeper (as in extending farther west) economy.
The Cannucks were also united against the USA. Remember Laura Secord, BTW. It was the time of rise of nationalism after all. Canada was a part of Empire with much greater resources and industrial power USA could not match at that time.:rolleyes:
Britain tried raiding into the US and just burned some farmhouses and some government buildings.
Including some located in Washington DC.:p
The major American victory at New Orleans - even that happened after the Treaty of Ghent.
 
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Two POD's needed that I can think of

1. Stronger American Army/Navy
Instead of the aformentioned unmotivated militas the US needs a solid commited army with a good commander in it for the long haul. This can be achieved by creating a larger fear in the US of the British trying to recapture the colonies via Canada. The US would have a good army in the North ready to go with the forts and supply systems in place to sustain it.

2. Trafalgar is a Napoleonic Victory
The French need to win Traflagar to hurt the Royal Navy more so and really keep Britains focus on Europe longterm. A worse Napoleonic War for GB means a better War of 1812 for the US.

Effects would probably be a US Canada or something. Of course with big Napolenic Victories in Europe over GB (maybe not enough to conquer GB but enough to secure its place maybe) and a bigger US God only knows the long erm ramifications for the World.
 
If England wins in Europe then the war inevitably ends in defeat for the US, possibly worse than OTL where the US achieved nothing and was grateful not to lose territory.
 

burmafrd

Banned
Napoleon does not abdicate and fights to the bitter end, and is able to survive for at least another year or do (prior to Waterloo). His abdication is what allowed Britain to send a larger force to the US. Without that it does not go. If Things went better for Napoleon and his marshalls for just another year or so things would be greatly different in our war.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
Napoleon does not abdicate and fights to the bitter end, and is able to survive for at least another year or do (prior to Waterloo). His abdication is what allowed Britain to send a larger force to the US. Without that it does not go. If Things went better for Napoleon and his marshalls for just another year or so things would be greatly different in our war.

The forces were ordered there in February 1814, two months before his abdication.
 
Napoleon does not abdicate and fights to the bitter end, and is able to survive for at least another year or do (prior to Waterloo). His abdication is what allowed Britain to send a larger force to the US. Without that it does not go. If Things went better for Napoleon and his marshalls for just another year or so things would be greatly different in our war.

Napoleon did fight to the bitter end OTL, he only abdicated when the army (or at least the marshals) effectively mutinied and refused to fight on. The fact is he did pretty well to last as long as he did (military historians seem to agree that the defence of France was one of Napoleon's finest campaigns), it's really not realistic to assume he could last another year or so.

For the USA to win big in North America you need Britain to lose big in Europe, otherwise the balance of forces is just too unequal.
 
Here's one way that's not ASB, IMHO

The American offensives in Canada go well, which I think could have happened. The US is holding at least part of Canada, and events in Europe take a serious turn for the worse for the British.
Britain could just let Canada go, sue for peace, so it can focus on France, then come back later to get Canada in a rematch.
But, suppose that Britian makes an offer of a cease fire in place, with the front line to be the new border, perhaps with some post-war negotiations to rationalize it, if there's things like towns split in two. And the price for this is American declaration of war on France.
America enters the war, mainly with naval support and shipbuilding, but also with exports to Britian of raw materials.
By the time the war ends, there's enough understanding between the two countries that a war between them in the next few years is out of the question...aside from the economic cost that Britian could not afford.

By the time Britian's economy has recovered, and war is again an option, reconquest of Canada might be difficult.
 
One of the keys is a stronger US Army which is not actually all that impossible to have. Adams during his administration started a build up of the armed forces, especially the navy which showed really well against the French in the Quasi War. Jefferson, on his quest to cut spending in the federal government, first went after the military, and not only spot the growth the the armed forces, but did away with them in a lot of cases. For example, he put a number of the frigates build into dry dock. If Jefferson, had decided to increase military spending after the Barbary Wars, or kept it at the pace of the rate of Adams, the US would of had a larger number of frigates, and a stronger professional army in the war. This would of given there chances at taking Canada, greater.
 
could we do something simple, like Napoleon not invading Russia? That would preserve the bulk of his army and keep the Brits tied up at home for a long time... maybe the emperor tries to rebuild his fleet to deal with Britain, and thus, the RN has to stay home also? The only way the Yanks can win is if Britain is distracted in Europe....
 
My bet would be - have the Americans be a little less agressive against the Indians. Say, have Harrison have a heart attack in 1809 - the Americans will still be pressing on the frontier but without Prophetstown Tecumseh'll have a much harder time rallying the tribes. Give heart attacks to Brock and Hull, too, just to even the leadership gap. The new Brit in charge is Sheaffe, who isn't an incompetant but certainly isn't Isaac Brock. Sheaffe doesn't deal with Tecumseh as well as Brock did, so Tecumseh fights his own little war independantly, with less people and less British support out on the frontier.

...Got to go to class - I'll put up more when I'm done. :eek:
 
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