The Want for a Pineapple (A Brazilian empire timeline)

[Incanian]

During the Napoleonic wars, When Napoleon invaded Iberia, the Portuguese Royal family fled to Brazil. After the Napoleonic wars ended, and Portugal became independent again, the Royal family actually stayed in Brazil for a few more years, until the Portuguese public wanted them to come back to Brazil. So the Emperor came back to Brazil and left his Son in Brazil to govern it. So my question is.....What if in an Alternate timeline the Royal family seeing the strategic, and resource advantage Brazil has, decided to stay in Brazil, and move the Portuguese empire to Brazil, and Portugal on Iberia to become a colony on a Portuguese empire now centred in Brazil. The Emperor now calls for all Portuguese to move to the new Heart of the Empire. Brazil. And the Emperors want for a Pineapple is sated.

What would be the outcomes?
Points to discuss could be

Portuguese expansion in South America
Reaction from the world
Future of Brazil
Migration to Brazil
Wars of Brazil
Foreign policy
Brazilian colony in Portugal
Brazilian colonization of Patagonia

Discuss

 

[JonasResende]

During the Napoleonic wars, When Napoleon invaded Iberia, the Portuguese Royal family fled to Brazil. After the Napoleonic wars ended, and Portugal became independent again, the Royal family actually stayed in Brazil for a few more years, until the Portuguese public wanted them to come back to Brazil. So the Emperor came back to Brazil and left his Son in Brazil to govern it. So my question is.....What if in an Alternate timeline the Royal family seeing the strategic, and resource advantage Brazil has, decided to stay in Brazil, and move the Portuguese empire to Brazil, and Portugal on Iberia to become a colony on a Portuguese empire now centred in Brazil. The Emperor now calls for all Portuguese to move to the new Heart of the Empire. Brazil. And the Emperors want for a Pineapple is sated.

What would be the outcomes?
Points to discuss could be

Portuguese expansion in South America
Reaction from the world
Future of Brazil
Migration to Brazil
Wars of Brazil
Foreign policy
Brazilian colony in Portugal
Brazilian colonization of Patagonia

Discuss

Didn't João try this for a while? One of his ministers warned him that the Portuguese would never consent to being ruled from a former colony, least of all one as "backwards" (to the European mind) as Brasil.

It'd be like George III winning the ARW and deciding to move his caital to New York and run England from there. It's gonna cause widespread resentment/alienation from the British populace.

 

[Saoirse]

During the Napoleonic wars, When Napoleon invaded Iberia, the Portuguese Royal family fled to Brazil. After the Napoleonic wars ended, and Portugal became independent again, the Royal family actually stayed in Brazil for a few more years, until the Portuguese public wanted them to come back to Brazil. So the Emperor came back to Brazil and left his Son in Brazil to govern it. So my question is.....What if in an Alternate timeline the Royal family seeing the strategic, and resource advantage Brazil has, decided to stay in Brazil, and move the Portuguese empire to Brazil, and Portugal on Iberia to become a colony on a Portuguese empire now centred in Brazil. The Emperor now calls for all Portuguese to move to the new Heart of the Empire. Brazil. And the Emperors want for a Pineapple is sated.

What would be the outcomes?
Points to discuss could be

Portuguese expansion in South America
Reaction from the world
Future of Brazil
Migration to Brazil
Wars of Brazil
Foreign policy
Brazilian colony in Portugal
Brazilian colonization of Patagonia

Discuss

It happened in 1815, when Dom João VI elevated Brazil to United Kingdom, keeping the capital in Rio. The 1820 Liberal Revolution in Porto was an answer to that. So the situation is actually OTL.

 

[Incanian]

Didn't João try this for a while? One of his ministers warned him that the Portuguese would never consent to being ruled from a former colony, least of all one as "backwards" (to the European mind) as Brasil.

It'd be like George III winning the ARW and deciding to move his caital to New York and run England from there. It's gonna cause widespread resentment/alienation from the British populace.

I know, but it's the scenario I'm interested in If the Royal family stayed in Brazil, what would happen to the world, Europe, South America, and the rest of politics.

 

[Incanian]

It happened in 1815, when Dom João VI elevated Brazil to United Kingdom, keeping the capital in Rio. The 1820 Liberal Revolution in Porto was an answer to that. So the situation is actually OTL.

So we can discuss the situation easier, as it only takes a few strings to pull for this timeline to happen.

 

[Saoirse]

So we can discuss the situation easier, as it only takes a few strings to pull for this timeline to happen.

It would need only a way for the Royal Family to stay without losing control of Portugal as they were. Dom João wasn't very fond of returning, he loved Brazil. He did it in order to not lose Portugal.

 

[Incanian]

It would need only a way for the Royal Family to stay without losing control of Portugal as they were. Dom João wasn't very fond of returning, he loved Brazil. He did it in order to not lose Portugal.

Exactly. So let's have him not care about Losing Portugal. Now we can discuss the future of Brazil, Europe, and the world.

 

[Saoirse]

Exactly. So let's have him not care about Losing Portugal. Now we can discuss the future of Brazil, Europe, and the world.

So the only POD neede is if the Liberal Revolution never happened ^^

 

[Incanian]

So the only POD neede is if the Liberal Revolution never happened ^^

Okay, let's just now discuss the outcomes of the Brazilian royal Family staying in Brazil, and how It would affect history.

 

[Tigor]

I know this is pretty much ASB but let me try to come up with something: Maybe the royal family is delayed from going to Portugal for 'reasons', and then the Porto Revolution becomes anarchy, and someone takes the throne of Portugal, but only in Portugal, with Brazil keeping the overseas territories.

 

[Alex Zetsu]

I just loved the title

 

[Incanian]

I just loved the title

Thanks

 

[Incanian]

I know this is pretty much ASB but let me try to come up with something: Maybe the royal family is delayed from going to Portugal for 'reasons', and then the Porto Revolution becomes anarchy, and someone takes the throne of Portugal, but only in Portugal, with Brazil keeping the overseas territories.

I wouldn't say it's completely ASB. Just have the Portuguese royal family stay in, which doesn't require a lot to do. I still want more people talking about what happens, not how it would happen. I clarified the pod is the Portuguese royal family stays in Brazil after the Napoleonic wars forced them to go to Brazil.

So can we get back to the scenario, a how id' affect Europe, South America, the world, and history?

 

[ByzantineCaesar]

My thoughts:

• The immediate consequence is that the African colonies remain Luso-Brazilian. This would not significantly impact Brazil right oof the bat, but in a few decades it would become a major source of tension with Great Britain in their crusade to end the transatlantic slave trade. We might see a British occupation and annexation of Angola and Guinea, but that would be the most extreme scenario. However, Britain would probably have an easier time enforcing the Aberdeen Act, since they could just blockade Guinea and Angola instead of trying to patrol the entire Brazilian coast. The likelihood of a Brazilian-British war increases significantly. If Brazil manages to keep the African colonies after that, they will be a sore point in the 20th century. Even if Brazil lets them go peacefully, the Brazilian foreign policy cannot exactly champion decolonization and the Third World, being a colonial power itself. This changes a lot.

• Portugal goes Republican. There is no way around it. The Portuguese liberals might have accepted an independent monarchy, but the natural Braganza candidate Dom Miguel would never be accepted as monarch

• The Brazilian independence war is a lot easier, as it won't happen. Brazil won't have to seek international recognition either. This potentially enables them to do better in the inevitable Cisplatine War, since Luso-Brazilian presence at Montevideo and Uruguay at large wouldn't have been harmed by the independence war

• Brazil is unlikely to go through a regency council, hence the 1830s and 1840s could be much stabler. However, Brazil would have been born as an Absolute Monarchy, rather than a Constitutional one. There would be a constititional crisis eventually

• The Luso-Brazilian monarch is likely to take the title of Imperator Occidentalis (Emperor of the West), as was suggested by Dom Luis da Cunha in the mid 18th century. Emperor of Brazil is also possible.

As for the other points raised by the OP, foreign policy would remain basically the same, with the exception of the existence of Luso-Brazilian interests in Asia and Africa. These interests will pale in comparison to Platine interests and politics, however, at least until the alternate Berlin Congress. The same is valid for wars, with the increased possibility of conflict against Britain. Immigration will stay the same, or maybe even diminish as slaves can be brought in from Guinea and Angola. As for Patagonia, there's no reason for its colonization.

 

[Incanian]

My thoughts:

• The immediate consequence is that the African colonies remain Luso-Brazilian. This would not significantly impact Brazil right oof the bat, but in a few decades it would become a major source of tension with Great Britain in their crusade to end the transatlantic slave trade. We might see a British occupation and annexation of Angola and Guinea, but that would be the most extreme scenario. However, Britain would probably have an easier time enforcing the Aberdeen Act, since they could just blockade Guinea and Angola instead of trying to patrol the entire Brazilian coast. The likelihood of a Brazilian-British war increases significantly. If Brazil manages to keep the African colonies after that, they will be a sore point in the 20th century. Even if Brazil lets them go peacefully, the Brazilian foreign policy cannot exactly champion decolonization and the Third World, being a colonial power itself. This changes a lot.

• Portugal goes Republican. There is no way around it. The Portuguese liberals might have accepted an independent monarchy, but the natural Braganza candidate Dom Miguel would never be accepted as monarch

• The Brazilian independence war is a lot easier, as it won't happen. Brazil won't have to seek international recognition either. This potentially enables them to do better in the inevitable Cisplatine War, since Luso-Brazilian presence at Montevideo and Uruguay at large wouldn't have been harmed by the independence war

• Brazil is unlikely to go through a regency council, hence the 1830s and 1840s could be much stabler. However, Brazil would have been born as an Absolute Monarchy, rather than a Constitutional one. There would be a constititional crisis eventually

• The Luso-Brazilian monarch is likely to take the title of Imperator Occidentalis (Emperor of the West), as was suggested by Dom Luis da Cunha in the mid 18th century. Emperor of Brazil is also possible.

As for the other points raised by the OP, foreign policy would remain basically the same, with the exception of the existence of Luso-Brazilian interests in Asia and Africa. These interests will pale in comparison to Platine interests and politics, however, at least until the alternate Berlin Congress. The same is valid for wars, with the increased possibility of conflict against Britain. Immigration will stay the same, or maybe even diminish as slaves can be brought in from Guinea and Angola. As for Patagonia, there's no reason for its colonization.

Nice. Great job on the timeline. Do you think there would be any changes for the Abolishment of Slavery?

 

[ByzantineCaesar]

Nice. Great job on the timeline. Do you think there would be any changes for the Abolishment of Slavery?

I don't think so, no.

 

[Incanian]

I don't think so, no.

Do you think Brazil might be more aggressive towards its neighbours? Maybe wanting to become a world power in the Southern Hemisphere, and soon wanted to become part of the global stage?

 

[ByzantineCaesar]

Do you think Brazil might be more aggressive towards its neighbours? Maybe wanting to become a world power in the Southern Hemisphere, and soon wanted to become part of the global stage?

That's pretty much OTL. Brazil had an imperialistic agenda in the Southern Cone and regarded itself better than their republican neighbors. The difference is that Brazil will already be born with a perception of itself as a world power rather than gradually developing that mindset. I don't see why that would influence policy to the point of major divergences though, except for Brazilian limited participation in the Scramble for Africa.

 

[Incanian]

That's pretty much OTL. Brazil had an imperialistic agenda in the Southern Cone and regarded itself better than their republican neighbors. The difference is that Brazil will already be born with a perception of itself as a world power rather than gradually developing that mindset. I don't see why that would influence policy to the point of major divergences though, except for Brazilian limited participation in the Scramble for Africa.

Do you think there could be a mass Portuguese migration to Brazil, the new hub of the Portuguese empire? And if so, would the future of the Amazon rainforest be at stake, so they could clear the rainforest for farmland to gain more power?

 

[ByzantineCaesar]

Do you think there could be a mass Portuguese migration to Brazil, the new hub of the Portuguese empire? And if so, would the future of the Amazon rainforest be at stake, so they could clear the rainforest for farmland to gain more power?

Not in any significant fashion. I haven't seen anything indicating massive Portuguese immigration to Brazil between 1815 and 1820. There's no reason to believe that such a movement would exist, or that the new Portuguese government would allow people to emigrate en masse (for instance, Portugal forbade immigration to Brazil during the Minas Gerais gold rush, fearing depopulation).

And even if the entire Portuguese population emigrated, the Amazon wouldn't be at risk. Even today, 2018, Brazil is one of the most thinly peopled countries of the world (in terms of population density), in spite of its population of 200 million.