The Spanish Empire partitioned (Option 4)

[Thande]

To steal VoCSe's thunder, apparently the Count of Aranda had a plan to reform the Spanish possessions in the Americas in response to the American Revolution.

From the Infallible Wikipeda:

In Paris, analyzing the situation created after the United States independence, he [Aranda] drafted a kind of project of Commonwealth for the Spanish Empire: three independent kingdoms (Peru, Tierra Firme (New Grenada and Venezuela) and Mexico) with three Spanish infantes in their thrones. The Spanish king would remain as the Spanish Emperor[1].

So what if this plan had been implemented, especially if it's a TL where the Peninsular War is delayed or avoided?

 

[Dan1988]

You still have a problem with Peru - what about Buenos Aires and the Rio de la Plate area?

 

[Thande]

You still have a problem with Peru - what about Buenos Aires and the Rio de la Plate area?

I think they would have been included in Peru, but I can't see that being terribly popular, as they'd only just been made an independent Viceroyalty in 1776.

 

[Dan1988]

I think they would have been included in Peru, but I can't see that being terribly popular, as they'd only just been made an independent Viceroyalty in 1776.

Exactly! Eventually the plan would have to be modified to include in a separate Viceroyalty of the Rio de la Plata.

 

[Wendell]

Would the Caribbean possessions and Pacific Ocean possessions remin directly under the Spanish crown?

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Would the Caribbean possessions and Pacific Ocean possessions remin directly under the Spanish crown?

Since they were part of New Spain, it's more likely they'd go to Mexico. Spain itself would be left with no colonies outside of Africa.

 

[Wendell]

Since they were part of New Spain, it's more likely they'd go to Mexico. Spain itself would be left with no colonies outside of Africa.

I was thinking that they were administered separately by that point in time.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

I was thinking that they were administered separately by that point in time.

I'm pretty sure the Philippines were always part of New Spain. As for the remaining Caribbean possessions (Cuba, eastern Hispaniola, Puerto Rico, and probably nothing more), they might have been through different administrations before, but AFAIK they were in New Spain at that time.

 

[Tocomocho]

Ok, I think I found Aranda's letter to the King in this subject:

“..Que V.M se desprenda de todas las posesiones del continente de América, quedándose únicamente con las islas de Cuba y Puerto Rico en la parte septentrional y algunas que más convengan en la meridional, con el fin de que ellas sirvan de escala o depósito para el comercio español. Para verificar este vasto pensamiento de un modo conveniente a la España se deben colocar tres infantes en América: el uno de Rey de México, el otro de Perú y el otro de lo restante de Tierra Firme, tomando VM el título de Emperador. (…)“

Which in English should say something like this:

"...That Y.H give up all the possessions of the continent of America, keeping only the islands of Cuba and Puerto Rico in the northern part and some more suited in the southern, in order to serve as port of call or store to the Spanish trade. To verify this vast thinking in a proper form to the Spain must be installed three infantes in America: the one as King of Mexico, the other of Peru and the other of the rest of Tierra Firme, taking YH the title of Emperor. (...)"

I wonder why he said keeping Cuba and Puerto Rico but not Santo Domingo. I don't think it would go to anywhere so I suppose it would remain part of Spain. Florida probably too, though Aranda was of he oppinion that it would be invaded soon by the United States and it wasn't worth the cost of keeping it. In South America he probably taks about retaining Trinidad as a gate to Venezuela and the Malvines (Falklands) as a base near Buenos Aires and the Magallanes Straits.

The sons of Carlos III living at that time are these:

- María Josefa (?)
- Felipe Antonio (retarded and excluded from the succession line)
- The future Carlos IV
- King Ferdinando I of the Two Sicilies
- Gabriel
- Antonio Pascual (skilled artisan and fond of Peruvian musical instruments, lol)

 

[Gonzaga]

Ok, I think I found Aranda's letter to the King in this subject:



Which in English should say something like this:

I wonder why he said keeping Cuba and Puerto Rico but not Santo Domingo. I don't think it would go to anywhere so I suppose it would remain part of Spain. Florida probably too, though Aranda was of he oppinion that it would be invaded soon by the United States and it wasn't worth the cost of keeping it. In South America he probably taks about retaining Trinidad as a gate to Venezuela and the Malvines (Falklands) as a base near Buenos Aires and the Magallanes Straits.

The sons of Carlos III living at that time are these:

- María Josefa (?)
- Felipe Antonio (retarded and excluded from the succession line)
- The future Carlos IV
- King Ferdinando I of the Two Sicilies
- Gabriel
- Antonio Pascual (skilled artisan and fond of Peruvian musical instruments, lol)

What did he want to say with "the rest of Tierra Firme"? Rio de la Plata?

 

[Tocomocho]

What did he want to say with "the rest of Tierra Firme"? Rio de la Plata?

Tierra Firme was the later Gran Colombia. La Plata had been separated from Peru for only 7 years so I don't think it would be elevated to the status of kingdom so soon. In fact, at that time many criticised the separation of the Upper and Lesser Peru (Bolivia) and apparently Aranda didn't have any love for Buenos Aires. Later, in 1786, he proposed to put another infante in it, but as part of a crazy plan to take over Portugal (?): http://books.google.com/books?id=_a...ts=0v1BZVbhnJ&sig=7dp6mZjIisEpYBgvBiiCtE8hwJM

 

[Dan1988]

I'm pretty sure the Philippines were always part of New Spain. As for the remaining Caribbean possessions (Cuba, eastern Hispaniola, Puerto Rico, and probably nothing more), they might have been through different administrations before, but AFAIK they were in New Spain at that time.

Technically yes, but these were captaincies-general, which are different in the fact that they were more autonomous than the viceroyalties.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Tierra Firme was the later Gran Colombia.

Are you sure of this? It says "the rest of Tierra Firme", which to me would suggest this is a larger region. Wiki talks of "Tierra Firma" as being Panama, and has a map to back it up.

I also find it strange he doesn't seem to mention New Granada by name.

 

[Tocomocho]

New Granada and especially Venezuela were also known at first as "Capitanía General de (la) Tierra Firme". It is a name that appears mostly in early times, in the 16th-17th centuries but apparently it was used sometimes till the end of colonial rule. Aranda is using an old-fashioned and outdated term, but it's not so difficult to figure what he is talking about.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

New Granada and especially Venezuela were also known at first as "Capitanía General de (la) Tierra Firme". It is a name that appears mostly in early times, in the 16th-17th centuries but apparently it was used sometimes till the end of colonial rule. Aranda is using an old-fashioned and outdated term, but it's not so difficult to figure what he is talking about.

OK, his wording was pretty confusing. BTW, should it be "Firme" or "Firma".

 

[Thande]

New Granada and especially Venezuela were also known at first as "Capitanía General de (la) Tierra Firme". It is a name that appears mostly in early times, in the 16th-17th centuries but apparently it was used sometimes till the end of colonial rule. Aranda is using an old-fashioned and outdated term, but it's not so difficult to figure what he is talking about.

If it was implemented, do you think that term would be used, or would a different one be used, and if so, what?

 

[Tocomocho]

New Granada was more common aside of the official name of the viceroyalty. I think they would keep it.

OK, his wording was pretty confusing. BTW, should it be "Firme" or "Firma".

Firme.

 

[Thande]

New Granada was more common aside of the official name of the viceroyalty. I think they would keep it.

But did that include the area of modern Venezuela? The way you phrased your previous posting implied that it doesn't.

 

[Tocomocho]

It did. Look here and here.

There is some complictae evolution of terms here. At first, the Spanish who sailed from the Caribbean Islands landed at what is now Venezuela and Lake Maracaibo and named it "Tierra Firme", which means "Mainland". It wasn't then a geographic term to the region but a way to say that it was the continent in opposition to the islands. Then Mexico is conquered, and shortly after Peru. As these zones were known soon by these names, "Tierra Firme" was reserved to the northern part of South America. New Granada was at first only the name of the audience established in Bogota but later became a synonym of Tierra Firme, the lands from Panama to Guyana. When the Bourbons arrived and reorganized the colonial administration, they created a new Viceroyalty of New Granada in this lands. It's worth a mention that before in early years also, Venezuela actually depended of Santo Domingo and Colombia-Ecuador-Panama of Peru, as seen here. Due to this reason "Tierra Firme" was also used to talk only about Venezuela, as it was "Tierra Firme" (i.e. Mainland) from the point of view of the government of Santo Domingo. It's a mess, I know.

 

[Thande]

It did. Look here and here.

There is some complictae evolution of terms here. At first, the Spanish who sailed from the Caribbean Islands landed at what is now Venezuela and Lake Maracaibo and named it "Tierra Firme", which means "Mainland". It wasn't then a geographic term to the region but a way to say that it was the continent in opposition to the islands. Then Mexico is conquered, and shortly after Peru. As these zones were known soon by these names, "Tierra Firme" was reserved to the northern part of South America. New Granada was at first only the name of the audience established in Bogota but later became a synonym of Tierra Firme, the lands from Panama to Guyana. When the Bourbons arrived and reorganized the colonial administration, they created a new Viceroyalty of New Granada in this lands. It's worth a mention that before in early years also, Venezuela actually depended of Santo Domingo and Colombia-Ecuador-Panama of Peru, as seen here. Due to this reason "Tierra Firme" was also used to talk only about Venezuela, as it was "Tierra Firme" (i.e. Mainland) from the point of view of the government of Santo Domingo. It's a mess, I know.

A positively British level of confusing and self-contradictory notation for geographical areas