The Red Baron's Mitteleuropa

Does the spike to around 27% in 1927 mean that this year alone 16.000.000 Germans died due to famine and suicide? Just to compare: In WW 1 and WW 2 combined Germany had around 9.500.000 civilian and military deaths. Even if you mean, that from the beginning of World War I up to 1927 27% of the population died, that implies 13.500.000 died after conclusion of the war, which would mean a average of 1.500.000 million deaths a year. I really think you overestimate the number of suicides. Even if I quadruple the suicide rates I found for America during the great depression, that would mean only around 40.000 suicides/year.
 
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Does the spike to around 27% in 1927 mean that this year alone 16.000.000 Germans died due to famine and suicide? Just to compare: In WW 1 and WW 2 combined Germany had around 9.500.000 civilian and military deaths. Even if you mean, that from the beginning of World War I up to 1927 27% of the population died, that implies 13.500.000 died after conclusion of the war, which would mean a average of 1.500.000 million deaths a year. I really think you overestimate the number of suicides. Even if I quadruple the suicide rates I found for America during the great depression, that would mean only around 40.000 suicides/year.

So what would be a realistic but high number of suicides and deaths from famine? I'm not sure if we might have to take into account the Spanish Flu, which could have affected Germany as well.

Autocorrect, Im sure, but the Luftwaffe large thighs were Göring's, so not TTL.... ;):):D

Don't forget that the Allies have not removed restrictions on what kind of aircraft the Germans are allowed to build, and they would still not remove restrictions on gliders though.
 
So what would be a realistic but high number of suicides and deaths from famine? I'm not sure if we might have to take into account the Spanish Flu, which could have affected Germany as well.



Don't forget that the Allies have not removed restrictions on what kind of aircraft the Germans are allowed to build, and they would still not remove restrictions on gliders though.
I may be wrong but I don't believe there ever was a restriction on gliders, only on powered aircraft.
The Germans discovered this loophole and naturally took advantage of it.
 
I may be wrong but I don't believe there ever was a restriction on gliders, only on powered aircraft.
The Germans discovered this loophole and naturally took advantage of it.

And of course, I kept this loophole open for obvious reasons. Now that Germany is practically broke, we might actually expect the Weimar Republic to suffer an early death.
 
Now with terms of job creation, would von Richthofen be willing to boost agriculture or would he establish a small scale manufacturing industry first?
 
So agriculture wins it all. Of course, the Red Baron might also look at allowing tractor companies to produce tractors for farmers, and it looks like we might have a heads up of improving German agriculture without the need for Lebensraum.
 
It's more like 36% of Germany's entire population. I can lower it down to 27% if you want.

So what would be a realistic but high number of suicides and deaths from famine? I'm not sure if we might have to take into account the Spanish Flu, which could have affected Germany as well.

I see you've already changed it...It's fine with me either way, I just think a lower rate would be more realistic.

In OTL, if I got my numbers right, one of the "suicide capitals" of the world are South Korea and Lithuania, in which 0.031 % people commit suicide each year.

Let's, just as an example, estimate Germany's rate is around 0.04 %. So, in the 1918-1927 period, Germany would have lost approximately 0.4 % of its initial population (so roughly 230,000 people) to suicide, and just suicide. So I think that's the highest possible number of people for Germany to lose through suicide in that period.

If we also take into account the Spanish Flu, starvation, and immigration from Germany to other countries (which was probably massive) your number of 27% becomes more realistic, but IMO it's still a bit too high.
 
I see you've already changed it...It's fine with me either way, I just think a lower rate would be more realistic.

In OTL, if I got my numbers right, one of the "suicide capitals" of the world are South Korea and Lithuania, in which 0.031 % people commit suicide each year.

Let's, just as an example, estimate Germany's rate is around 0.04 %. So, in the 1918-1927 period, Germany would have lost approximately 0.4 % of its initial population (so roughly 230,000 people) to suicide, and just suicide. So I think that's the highest possible number of people for Germany to lose through suicide in that period.

If we also take into account the Spanish Flu, starvation, and immigration from Germany to other countries (which was probably massive) your number of 27% becomes more realistic, but IMO it's still a bit too high.

You're right, so it could go down to 24%, but the Germans might have a little recovery in terms of population due to the Poles expelling some Germans from Danzig/Gdansk. Oh, but there's a problem with immigration: I'm not sure if Canada, Australia and New Zealand were willing to take in German immigrants at the moment, but South America might be a good place to go, especially Argentina. The US, possibly, if German businessmen want to settle in CONUS or the Philippines. Before WWII broke out in OTL, Manila boasted a huge European and American diasporas, especially Spanish expatriates.
 
You're right, so it could go down to 24%, but the Germans might have a little recovery in terms of population due to the Poles expelling some Germans from Danzig/Gdansk. Oh, but there's a problem with immigration: I'm not sure if Canada, Australia and New Zealand were willing to take in German immigrants at the moment, but South America might be a good place to go, especially Argentina. The US, possibly, if German businessmen want to settle in CONUS or the Philippines. Before WWII broke out in OTL, Manila boasted a huge European and American diasporas, especially Spanish expatriates.

Argentina might be a good destination, and maybe the USA as well. I also wonder if there is at least a trickle of immigration from Germany to Austria, since it's a close, German-speaking country, and they're under a lot less economic restrictions and hardships, aren't they?
 
We're not sure if there might be an Anschluss, given Georg von Trapp's opposition to supporting Von Richthofen's goals of German unification.
 
Case Study: Germany




The Montreal Gazette
PUTSCH! GERMAN MILITARY DECLARES THE END OF THE WEIMAR REPUBLIC!
By Beatrice Coudreau
January 9th, 1928




Germany announces the end of the Weimar Republic as elements of the German Army marched towards Weimar in order to arrest several leading members of the Social Democrats. At 05:00, the 2nd Reichswehr Division left their barracks in Leipzig while the 16th Bavarian Reserve Regiment marched towards Munich to carry out their own purges of the local Social Democrats there. By the time the 16th Bavarian Reserve Regiment arrived at the office of the Bavarian Defense Ministry, other regiments within the German Army were already on the March. It was also widely rumored that the Prussian Corps had already seized control of Koenigsberg, Dresden and Berlin and awaited further orders as to what to do next. Leading Social Democratic politicians denounced the coup as illegal and would give Presiden Paul von Hindenburg the emergency powers to rule by decree. Unfortunately, Von Hindenburg was persuaded by the DNVP to let the putsch continue and DNVP party leader Manfred von Richthofen assured him that he will get a comfortable retirement once he steps aside. The old general’s health was not up to par by the time the coup started, and von Hindenburg gladly agreed.

“We are looking at a new regime in Germany that is willing to stand up in defense of its own interests,” said Franz von Papen after he was won over to the military opposition. “We will rule by decree and then we will have elections in two years.”

The German public reacted with joy as the Reichswehr announced that it will place the entire Social Democratic Party leadership on trial on charges of “treason and subversion” against the state, but foreign statesmen denounced the move as dictatorial, something the German military leaders didn’t care to respond to.

“It now appears that Germany’s revanchist behavior has gone out of control, but if we charge into the Rhineland with guns blazing, we’ll be the ones accused of aggression and world opinion will swing in favor of the Germans, and we don’t want that to happen,” French Prime Minister Raymond Poincare commented.

There was a mixed reaction across the British Empire as veterans of the Great War demonstrated in their respective capitals in opposition to the abolition of the Weimar Republic. From Manila in the Philippines, prominent Canadian war veteran Arthur Roy Brown gained credibility when other Canadian war veterans were given a copy of the Brown Memorandum circulated by Billy Bishop who led the demonstration in Ottwawa.

“We’re beginning to understand why Mr. Brown was very vocal when he said that the Red Baron will seize power if Germany is pushed beyond the sanity pool. Our veterans believe him when no one else would,” Canadian Prime Minister William Lyon MacKenzie King commented. “It does appear that we’ve made a mistake pushing him aside and I hope to God that we’re not too late to correct our mistake.”


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Memorandum of German Mortality Rate
By: Gerhard Schroeder




The German population rate was not determined by how much suicides were committed and how many German civilians died from starvation. Records of our country’s mortality rate were burned down during the German coup against the Weimar Republic, but it is estimated at around 4% of the population that decreased, and this does not include emigration to other nations. Helmut Kohl’s estimated amount of Germans who died from starvation and suicides were exaggerated at best, and his sources were unreliable because there was no record keeping of the German mortality rate at that time. It is recommended that we do a thorough count of Germans who died based on cause of death. If we can find out how many Germans took their own life and how many Germans who died from starvation and the Spanish flu, then we can deduce the actual death count.

(Note: I've changed the name of the author from Adenauer to Schroeder because the last update that talked about German demographics was written by Helmuth Kohl, so it would make sense to have Schroeder to write this instead of Adenauer)



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Courtesy of ProSieben
1960 Koenigstein’s Special Interview with George Lincoln Rockwell



Interviewer: We’re here with Herr Rockwell from the University of Yale today for a special interview on his thesis: How the United States Indirectly Killed the Weimar Republic. Can you tell us about your thesis and why do you think the United States is at fault here?


Rockwell: Thank you, Ms. Koenigstein. I wrote this essay in 1953 before I was accepted at Yale to teach Political Science in order to bring attention to my American audience about the greatest mistake our government has ever done.


Interviewer: You mean the German election campaign that the late Chancellor von Richthofen had done back in 1929?


Rockwell: Yes, I firmly believed that German democracy was already dead by the time the Red Baron was campaigning throughout Germany. President Hoover had committed a simple gesture that turned out to be a big mistake. They gave him a civilian airplane.


Interviewer: How was that a total mistake on the Americans’ part? Interestingly enough, there is a statue of Hoover just outside Berlin and there is a small American enclave called Hooverstadt just outside Koenigsberg-


Rockwell: A civilian airplane was used by Mr. Von Richthofen to fly across Germany in his election campaign, and combine that with Dr. Goebbels’ propaganda magic and the hidden power of public relations and the Red Baron’s record from the Great War, it was a no brainer that the Baron himself will win the election, despite the protests that were made by dejected Social Democrats. The Social Democrats were old dinosaurs in the art of political campaigning and Mr. Von Richthofen was able to utilize on the German anger towards the French, which really did the trick.


Interviewer: And do you think that if President Hoover did not give Chancellor von Richthofen a fighting chance, the Weimar Republic would have survived?


Rockwell: The only alternative to the DNVP’s “dictatorship” was a military dictatorship, and believe me, if you’ve seen what the United Slavonic Federation’s military regime is like, they’re the worst. Combining the worst of revolutionary socialism with militarism and Slavic chauvinism, then you’d be thinking that Chancellor von Richthofen’s authoritarian rule would have saved Europe.
 
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