The Peshawar Lancers - Questions

[Adam Parsons]

Okay, I FINALLY got ahold of this book, and am slowly working my way through it. I am wondering about a few things though.

*Why is there so much cannibalism? It seems like those in the British Raj view those left behind in Europe and America as thirsting for another's flesh. Are there any situations similar to the Fall in the past where people resort to cannibalism en masse? I was under the impression that is a line most people won't cross, but I may be wrong.

*Why the hell are the Russians cannibals AND devil-worshippers? Granted, losing the "third Rome" and the Tsar to a comet is bad, but how does abandoning Christianity altogether happen?

*Why does it seem to be taking so long to recivilize Britain? You'd think there'd be plenty of people interested in going back, and the actual work of setting up a colony wouldn't be that hard.

*The Germans are all dead, aren't they?

More questions to follow.

 

[zoomar]

Okay, I FINALLY got ahold of this book, and am slowly working my way through it. I am wondering about a few things though.

*Why is there so much cannibalism? It seems like those in the British Raj view those left behind in Europe and America as thirsting for another's flesh. Are there any situations similar to the Fall in the past where people resort to cannibalism en masse? I was under the impression that is a line most people won't cross, but I may be wrong.

*Why the hell are the Russians cannibals AND devil-worshippers? Granted, losing the "third Rome" and the Tsar to a comet is bad, but how does abandoning Christianity altogether happen?

*Why does it seem to be taking so long to recivilize Britain? You'd think there'd be plenty of people interested in going back, and the actual work of setting up a colony wouldn't be that hard.

*The Germans are all dead, aren't they?

More questions to follow.

I liked the book a lot, particularly because it featured a very imaginative (some might say, implausible) AH. I will try to give you my perspective on the questions you ask.

1. Cannibalism. Who knows?, but is sure helps explain why folks are in no particular hurry to move back.

2. I think Stirling is drawing on the Rasputin evil monk factor, and assuming that a faction with some very odd theology takes power in the Russian Orthodox Church after the comets strike and kill off most of european Russia. Besides, 19th century Orthodox priests with their long beards, unkempt hair, black robes, etc do look the part. Perhaps a gnostic dualistic revival with the satan worshipers taking over?

3. Other than the fact its overrun with cannibals (see above), one gets the impression that the Anglo-Indian elite have become so Indian in their outlook that they see no real need to recolonize England, especially since they are limited to nothing faster than airships (say about 120 km per hour) to get there.

4. Probably, but there may be a few hanging around in the ruins of central europe still doing what Germans do best - rape, pillage, murder, etc

 

[NapoleonXIV]

Cannibalism might reflect the fact that even in the late 19thc human beings constituted the largest pool of edible biomass in most urbanized areas. Assuming that most people died of hunger and cold their bodies remain, frozen for some time and far outnumbering even the rats you can catch. Once you start and realize that each mouth eaten no longer has to be fed then its easy to progress to the sick, the old and the loud neighbor you never really liked.

Weirdo Russian cults? Like the Skoptsi?

The average Englishman had to pried out of India with a crowbar even in OTL. India is warm all year, had thousands of servants who would gladly work a decade for a year's wages, a cuisine and spices that were justly world famous even in Roman times and a wealth of young and beautiful ranis who considered sexual expertise as a religious duty. Nana Sahib started the Great Mutiny after returning from England and realizing that the Brits liked India because they had it so much better there than they did at home.

 

[Rahul]

a wealth of young and beautiful ranis who considered sexual expertise as a religious duty.

You're mistaking queens for concubines. Big difference there.

 

[NapoleonXIV]

You're mistaking queens for concubines. Big difference there.

Sorry, I'm referring to the Indian mistresses considered an entitlement by every right thinking English...... .... what are the right terms anyhow? I want to be historically correct and not insult anybody.

 

[Saladin]

Okay, the term normally used was 'mistress' but by the time of the Fall, the practice had all but died out. The tendency for British officers and gentlemen to take indian mistresses began to die out as more English women began coming to India, c 1830. See Saul David's "The Indian Mutiny" for a good concise discussion on this


*Why is there so much cannibalism?

Because in the book, the series of impacts begin close to moscow and track as far west as the rockies. In addition the central fragment of teh asteroid/comet hits the atlantic, creating tidal waves over eastern US and western europe, thus crippling most available famland.

The atmospheric effects for 2 or 3 years thereafter are so severe that it is almost impossible to grow any crops successfully.

even if one ate all the dead farm animals and all available seed stock, after 18 months all thats really left in terms of edibleness is people



*Why the hell are the Russians cannibals AND devil-worshippers? Granted, losing the "third Rome" and the Tsar to a comet is bad, but how does abandoning Christianity altogether happen?

My criticism of this is in fact the opposite. How come only the Russians? In the book, the Russians refer to Christ as "the betrayer" which I took to be a reference to the promise made after the flood not to destroy humanity again. Assuming that the Russian reaction was isolated, theologically speaking, then turning to the dark side, as it were, would probably morally encourage the continuation of at least ritual cannibalism


*Why does it seem to be taking so long to recivilize Britain? You'd think there'd be plenty of people interested in going back, and the actual work of setting up a colony wouldn't be that hard.

Too damn hard to get to with the tech they have -- clipper ships are still being built c1970 in the book -- a lot easier to focus on Australasia and south africa


*The Germans are all dead, aren't they?

Pretty much



All the best


Chris

 

[JHPier]

Re cannibalism: in extreme famine conditions it is not surprising that people resort to cannibalism, my problem was though: how come they keep it up? Humans are omnivores. a meat-only diet would lack various vital trace-elements I would have thought leading to the demise of the cannibals in a few years at most.

 

[JHPier]

My other problem with the scenario in the book: China/Japan survive as a civilization but the eastern U.S. does not. Yet the two regions are (roughly) similar size, in the same latitudes and with the same range of climates. It is highly inconsistent

 

[Kit]

There were comet strikes along the eastern sea board and the continental US. The West Coast escaped comet fragments, but still suffered from the severe climatic changes of the Northern Hemisphere, and also suffered from being overwhelmed by refugees.

 

[Torqumada]

My other problem with the scenario in the book: China/Japan survive as a civilization but the eastern U.S. does not. Yet the two regions are (roughly) similar size, in the same latitudes and with the same range of climates. It is highly inconsistent

IIRC, the East Coast of the US also takes several tsunami hits due the The Fall. That would effect things a great deal. However, since The Fall didn't hit the Pacific ocean, the Eastern coast of Asia would be spared the tsunami. They could still suffer from the nuclear winter, but not the damage from a tsunami.

Torqumada

 

[wkwillis]

Re cannibalism: in extreme famine conditions it is not surprising that people resort to cannibalism, my problem was though: how come they keep it up? Humans are omnivores. a meat-only diet would lack various vital trace-elements I would have thought leading to the demise of the cannibals in a few years at most.

People can live on meat only diets if the animal has the ability to synthesize vitamin C and maybe a few others. However, people can't live on people only diets because they aren't synthesizing vitamin C, so they have to have another source. Long Pig and pineapple is a good example. I'm not sure what other vitamins we are short of, but looking at the shelf of a pharmacy is a pretty good indication of what are nutritional deficiencies are going to be after a nuclear winter.
If people die of radiation poisoning, they aren't necessarily going to give you radiation poisoning if you can preserve the flesh in salt, alcohol, vinegar, etc, till the radionuclides decay.

 

[Rahul]

NapoleonXIV, no problem. I'm not entirely sure myself as my Hindi/Urdu is horrible at best..."devdasi" I think though that might be mroe a reference to Hindu "temple girls" who also supposedly did that sort of thing on the side. All I knew was that "rani" means queen and hence that's not the right term.

Am I the only one who found it odd that no Germans got onto their ships and escaped to some other place?

Also, with the US, why is most of it so bad beyond just the East Coast? The Great Plains would still have been viable and from the book, we know California and the West Coast still is for the most part, as is Texas from a short story called "shikari in Galveston".

I find it odd that most Spaniards went to "France Outre-Mer", not to South America and Mexico. Also, why aren't there more Italians in "France-Outre-Mer" as it would have been a mere boat ride away (and Sicilians probably would find it even easier).

 

[MerryPrankster]

NapoleonXIV, no problem. I'm not entirely sure myself as my Hindi/Urdu is horrible at best..."devdasi" I think though that might be mroe a reference to Hindu "temple girls" who also supposedly did that sort of thing on the side. All I knew was that "rani" means queen and hence that's not the right term.

Am I the only one who found it odd that no Germans got onto their ships and escaped to some other place?

Also, with the US, why is most of it so bad beyond just the East Coast? The Great Plains would still have been viable and from the book, we know California and the West Coast still is for the most part, as is Texas from a short story called "shikari in Galveston".

I find it odd that most Spaniards went to "France Outre-Mer", not to South America and Mexico. Also, why aren't there more Italians in "France-Outre-Mer" as it would have been a mere boat ride away (and Sicilians probably would find it even easier).

Much of the Plains get whacked by comet fragments and the "nuclear winter" effect will lead to greatly reduced crop yields and thus mass starvation. According to "Shikari," Mexico is still much the same (though I imagine hordes of American refugees would "Yankify" it really fast).

However, I still think there should be a California. The "nuclear winter" will cause the passes into California to fill up and thus there'll be VERY few refugees getting in. The "collapsing under the weight of refugees" scenario should not occur. Washington and Oregon should survive as well.

 

[Adam Parsons]

Okay, I have just learned that there IS such a god as Tchernobog in Slavic mythology. Appearantly, "Malik Nous" is a derivation of Melek Taus, the "Peacock Angel". Those that worship him, known as the Yazidi appear to have plenty of the theology used by the Russians in "The Peshawar Lancers". Except, of course, the rampant ritualized cannibalism and the crosstime-viewing seeresses.

Wow...learning is fun!

 

[JHPier]

As for the comet impacts, according to the explanation at the end of the book a spray of 100-300 MT-equivalent impacts hit Europe and North America. This translates to a scattering of holes 2-3 km across (or 2-3 times the size of Arizona's Meteor Crater), which means fragments of between 100-250 meter in diameter. Now the threshold of a civilization-killing comet is one with a diameter in the 1-1.5 km-range hitting dry land and since the crucial factor is the amount of dust thrown up in the atmosphere all the comet fragments that hit land combined cannot be much larger than this.
See for this http://janus.astro.umd.edu/astro/impact/ or http://www.webmesh.co.uk/overlord/protection.htm or the links on: http://www.barry.warmkessel.com/barry/3related.html

I don't see how this should affect more than 10% of farmable land between the Appalachians and the High Plains (apart from the climatic effacts that afflict the whole planet) or why it should destroy EVERY State government and its National Guard.

IMHO having a lot of people killed off right at the start should be a blessing in disguise, there being rather fewer people to lay claim to what crops can still be produced.

As for the cannibal thing, the highest birth rate on record is IIRC something like 60 per 1000. In other words, if they're not to eat themselves out of existence a population of cannibals has at most 60 individuals a year per 1000 people to prey upon.
So how are they supposed to have existed for more than a century?

Quote from this website: http://www.themessenger.info/FEB2002/AltHealthCare.html: "humans who consume more than half their calories as meat are at risk for fatal protein poisoning"

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Utah should survive as an independent nation in relatively good shape. For one thing, the Mormons are required as a tenet of the faith to keep a year's supply of basic staples if they possibly can.

Actually a good move in the practical sense too, as it can greatly ease the tension of needing a new job or other financial woe, if many of the basics are provided for in advance.

They should certainly be enjoying an early 19th Century existance, if not more advanced, possibly with allied Native American societies bordering them. Lacking population the Mormons were able to establish much better relations with the Navajo, Cheyenne, etc than the other Americans.

However, what was the population and industrial capacity of the West Coast to begin with? If there was a famine/shortfall for three-four years we might be left with a collection of squabbling city-states(village-states) totalling less than a quarter million, only achieving @5 million by the early 21st Century.

Most of the Great Plains would not have been viable. This was the period just as the US Army was finished breaking the Native Americans of this area but just prior to any real settlement. In 1889 and 1890 six states entered the Union meaning that each lacked the minimum 60,000 (white) people until then. Chances are the surviving Natives killed off the few settlers who weren't already starved, but didn't make it themselves.

As for the rest, don't forget that India, seat of the Raj, center of world civilization(cough cough), etc is said to have lost 75% or more of the population despite taking much less damage. And we have no idea what China and Japan were reduced to but the surviving population sounds like @120-130 million total, with about 15% Japanese. That's after over a century to recover.

 

[wkwillis]

As for the comet impacts, according to the explanation at the end of the book a spray of 100-300 MT-equivalent impacts hit Europe and North America. This translates to a scattering of holes 2-3 km across (or 2-3 times the size of Arizona's Meteor Crater), which means fragments of between 100-250 meter in diameter. Now the threshold of a civilization-killing comet is one with a diameter in the 1-1.5 km-range hitting dry land and since the crucial factor is the amount of dust thrown up in the atmosphere all the comet fragments that hit land combined cannot be much larger than this.
See for this http://janus.astro.umd.edu/astro/impact/ or http://www.webmesh.co.uk/overlord/protection.htm or the links on: http://www.barry.warmkessel.com/barry/3related.html

I don't see how this should affect more than 10% of farmable land between the Appalachians and the High Plains (apart from the climatic effacts that afflict the whole planet) or why it should destroy EVERY State government and its National Guard.

IMHO having a lot of people killed off right at the start should be a blessing in disguise, there being rather fewer people to lay claim to what crops can still be produced.

As for the cannibal thing, the highest birth rate on record is IIRC something like 60 per 1000. In other words, if they're not to eat themselves out of existence a population of cannibals has at most 60 individuals a year per 1000 people to prey upon.
So how are they supposed to have existed for more than a century?

Quote from this website: http://www.themessenger.info/FEB2002/AltHealthCare.html: "humans who consume more than half their calories as meat are at risk for fatal protein poisoning"

The majority of farmland was in the river bottoms in the south and west, and on the coast. On the river bottoms and the coast there was good soil, no rocks, easier to build roads (and railroads and steam boats) to transport it to markets.
But if one of them hit at the confluence of the Ohio and the Mississipi, there would be godawful flooding while the water pooled upstream, and then godawful flooding when the water breached the dam and went downstream. The shore is the other location of good soil and that will be flooded by the tsunami.

 

[zoomar]

Whatever. I found an AH with no United States or hardly any Americans in it quite refeshing to read - especially after all the Turtledove stuff.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Okay, I have just learned that there IS such a god as Tchernobog in Slavic mythology. Appearantly, "Malik Nous" is a derivation of Melek Taus, the "Peacock Angel". Those that worship him, known as the Yazidi appear to have plenty of the theology used by the Russians in "The Peshawar Lancers". Except, of course, the rampant ritualized cannibalism and the crosstime-viewing seeresses.

Wow...learning is fun!

I'm wondering how Yezidi ideology got into the Russian Orthodox Church. The refugees from Russia flowed south into Central Asia via Kazakhstan, but there's still a huge geographical gap that would keep them pretty much apart.

Even if much of the ruling class went a little crazy and adopted Satanism, how are they going to get the common folk of Russia to do this? It'd be extraordinarily difficult, autocratic Czar or no autocratic Czar.

 

[NapoleonXIV]

Dammit, I misplaced my copy about halfway through some time ago and haven't found it yet. Now I'm going to have to tear my BR apart, because you guys have revived my interest.

As for the cannibal thing, the highest birth rate on record is IIRC something like 60 per 1000. In other words, if they're not to eat themselves out of existence a population of cannibals has at most 60 individuals a year per 1000 people to prey upon.
So how are they supposed to have existed for more than a century?

Quote from this website: http://www.themessenger.info/FEB200...ealthCare.html: "humans who consume more than half their calories as meat are at risk for fatal protein poisoning"

I think the book only refers to ritual or ceremonial cannibalism. In OTL,
widespread ritual cannibalism among the Aztec is theorised to have been a useful supplement for diets deficient in protein.

I'm wondering how Yezidi ideology got into the Russian Orthodox Church. The refugees from Russia flowed south into Central Asia via Kazakhstan, but there's still a huge geographical gap that would keep them pretty much apart.

And I wonder how a religion that actually does advocate the utter death of humanity originates and keeps going at all. Even Thuggee, although it looks pretty death cultish and did practice ritual murder and cannibalism itself, is in fact actually a worship of the "yang" rather than the "yin" aspects of existence. Its pretty hard to see any logical course other than suicide once you admit the gods are out to get you.

That being said, its a pretty good device to make one of the creepier villains I've seen.