The Peshawar Lancers Extended Universes Project

[Strategos' Risk]

Like my Guns of the South extension idea, I suspect that this will become a one man show soon...

I really like nation lists and national profiles, so this is the first thing that I’ll make for the fan-extended The Peshawar Lancers project.

“It was still the British Raj, although you simply said the Empire; that was like referring to the Club in Peshawar, with no need for further qualification. Technically there was a mort of empires in today’s world; the East Asian colossus that Akahito ruled from Peking as Mikado and Son of Heaven; the Czar’s hell-born cesspit in Central Asia; the shadowy dominion centered on Rio de Janeiro that was reigned over by Dom Pedro and ruled by the caudillo of the month. Napoleon VI’s own Algiers-centered imperium around the western Mediterranean. There was also the Caliph in Damascus, of course; he did rule from the Danube to Baluchistan, even if he was a wog. Kali alone knew what titles savage chiefs in the interiors of barbarian Europe and the Americas and Africa used.” -pg. 44

Angrezi Raj (Delhi) [Lion Throne]
Dai-Nippon (Peking) [Dragon Throne]
Russian Remnant (Samarkand) [Serpent Throne]
Brazilian Empire (Rio de Janeiro)
France-outre-mere (Algiers) [I’d call it the Rooster Throne, since it’s the national emblem]
Caliphate of Damascus (Damascus)
Kingdom of Madagascar (Antananarivo) [Lemur Throne, anyone?]

Sultanate of Egypt (Cairo)
Batavian Republic (Batavia)
Free Cities of California

Those are the only confirmed sovereign (the last three are pretty borderline) nations from The Peshawar Lancers.

New ones in the fan-expanded universe (by me):

United States of Mexico (Mexico D.F.) [bilingual state similar to the USM in Robert Sobel’s For Want of a Nail, except more grim and unstable.

Republic of Argentina (Mar del Plata) [one of the two prominent fan-made TPL maps suggests an independent Argentina. While I dispute that, story-wise I guess we can have a strong caudillo taking power in the southern region of South America.]

Five-Tribe Nation (Muskogee) [the Cherokee, Chickasaw, Creek, Choctaw, and Seminole were some of the few peoples whose ways did not devolve to neosavagery. After the Fall, the tribes banded together along with former Confederates and some state militia remnants to fight off refugee hordes at great cost, but were ultimately successful in protecting the land approximately corresponding to OTL Indian Territory- by the twentieth century, they were able to expand somewhat outwards. There hasn’t been much contact between them and the Raj yet, but there are of course rumors of a powerful tribe in the middle of North America.

NOTE: I’m not sure if this nation is realistic, since even if they survived the agricultural disasters, they’d still have to contend with cannibal mobs. I was going to create an Iroquois state, but I decided that by OTL 1878 they were long-gone, anyway.]

I’m sticking with Stirling’s original ideas- whether by environmental disaster or by human nature, massive depopulations occurred in North America. So there aren’t necessarily going to be many “U.S. Government-In-Exiles” or “New Dixies” or “Texan Republics” worth a damn for the fanlist. Also, try to be creative in thinking of what kind of new governments that would be created post-Fall.

Any ideas for the name of the thrones of the other empires? I wonder what the old Muslim caliphates named their seat (haha) of power.

Also, add in your own ideas for other nations.

 

[Count Dearborn]

The Caliphate of Egypt could be called the Vulture or Cobra Throne, after the two ancient guardians of Egypt. Or you could have a large Persia contingent who took over, and call it the Peacock Throne. (Though the Peacock Angel is another name for Malek Taws.)

For Brazil, how about the Jaguar Throne.

Do you think the Travellers, and the Rom still exist. (Both are called Gypsies or Tinkers by rest of the world.)

 

[Tyr]

How about Abysinnia?
It seems rational to assume that they escaped pretty unscathed from the actual event. I'd imagine they would have a place in the world somewhat similar to Madagascar only less under the raj- due to being more out of the way and probally being more powerful in their own right.

I'm certain there is a 'Argentina'. At the very least there is a bunch of city states down there. Is the plate not mentioned in the book? I'm certain it was at one point.

Maybe a few other African kingdoms of note too.

Aren't there a few muslim nations dotted around the meditteranian coast? Vassals of Damascus mainly though worthy of note with being independant.

 

[Tetsu]

The throne of the Empire of Dai-Nippon would not be called the Dragon Throne, nor is the capital Peking. It's a Japanese empire [hence 'Nippon'], so the capital would be Tokyo and the royal seat would be called the Chrysanthemum Throne.

Just for clarification. The Dragon Throne is Chinese.

 

[Diamond]

The throne of the Empire of Dai-Nippon would not be called the Dragon Throne, nor is the capital Peking. It's a Japanese empire [hence 'Nippon'], so the capital would be Tokyo and the royal seat would be called the Chrysanthemum Throne.

Just for clarification. The Dragon Throne is Chinese.

IIRC, the capital of Dai-Nippon WAS Peking. The government was moved there so as to exert more direct control over their Chinese conquests, and the Mikado was declared the Chinese 'Son of Heaven' to emphasize that he now ruled both empires.

I agree though that they probably wouldn't call it the Dragon Throne. What about the Throne of Heaven?

 

[Nicole]

As long as the Empire still calls itself Nippon, it'll likely stay the Chrystanthemum Throne... The Chrystanthenum is an important symbol of the Japanese Emperor- It's on his flag, for example.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Except for Rooster and Lemur Throne, all of the thrones listed above are from the book itself. Stirling made the mistake about Dragon throne, though I guess the Nipponese might have allowed it so the Chinese wouldn't feel as estranged (dragon was symbol of the emperor, even if the throne wasn't called that). I bet Dai-Nippon probably have a Japanese-styled Dragon flying over the chrystanthemum.

I guess there should be an Abysinnia/Ethiopia/Nubia. I'd like someone else to help me create its history, though.

I've checked- there is no Argentina. However, like I said, there's always a chance of caudillos breaking from the Brazilian Empire.

I'm also adding a New Deseret and Siam, which rules SE Asia.

Aren't there a few muslim nations dotted around the meditteranian coast? Vassals of Damascus mainly though worthy of note with being independant.

Maybe. You make it up!


Again, I'd like someone to please tell me if my "Five-Tribe Nation" idea is plausible or not. Could the "five civilized tribes" have held on to the Indian Territory, with the help of ex-Confederates?

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Strategos', sorry, but if the Confederates couldn't save themselves then I can't see the Indian Territory resisting the wave of endless refugees.

Remember, these tribes were agricultural, and they lost most of their crops for a few years also. Nor could they defend the remainder successfully.

Unfortunate that Stirling set the POD when he did, a few years earlier and the buffalo herds would still be intact and we might have seen a confederacy of real weight in North America.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=18220&highlight=peshawar+lancers

The above shows a few ideas I mentioned earlier.

Ethiopia is a very good choice for surviving, far from the effects of the impact AND a Christian nation useful as a proxy/buffer for the British.

I've always wondered that Mexico could be wiped out to the point that the British could consider Mexico part of 'their' territory.

The impression of Brazil is that they managed to take over all of South America, but the price was stagnation as the Spanish-speaking nations endure endless resistance and Brazil has very little personnel, wealth, or energy left after holding the continent down.

A successful break by Argentina(and Chile?) would shake things up, and perhaps for the better, while either the Raj or China/Japan or both might see reasons to support an end to one of the few remaining powers.

 

[Nicole]

I've checked- there is no Argentina. However, like I said, there's always a chance of caudillos breaking from the Brazilian Empire.

Alot of the world isn't mentioned- What makes you think Brazil controls Argentina?

 

[SkyEmperor]

Stirling mentions a handful of Mormons around the Salt Lake Area. I'm guessing they colud have kept farmimg, since they were so seperate from the rest of the U.S. they would make a good trading hub for the rocky mountain minerals to be shipped via caravan to the cities on the california coast.
I'd like to think they side with the Angrezi Raj, since Mormons are so just plain good and honest (besides a culture exposed with so many Hindus and Muslims would be tolerant of polygamy).
If some radical apocalyptic sect took over Deseret might drift more into the Russian Sphere of influence, some of Joseph Smiths writings on 'blood justice' could be misinterpereted to allow human sacrifice, and their you have it.
For a third point of arguement the Mromons might just seal themselves off, like they tried to do in OTL.

 

[Archangel Michael]

I'd like to think they side with the Angrezi Raj, since Mormons are so just plain good and honest (besides a culture exposed with so many Hindus and Muslims would be tolerant of polygamy).

Quick, get him How Few Remain to show him how honest Mormons are.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Okay, I've read many of the posts on SHWI about TPL, some where Stirling actually replied. I'm going to incorporate some of the conclusions and answers there, without using any of the non-book stuff to a large degree. I'd really appreciate it if anyone reading this post actually reads each of the following points from start and finish.

1, Again, just go to Amazon.com, search for the hard-cover version of The Peshawar Lancers, and then search inside the book for any references to Argentina. There aren't any. However, on the SHWI discussions there are many ideas about it. My conclusion is that due to the massive damage caused by the Fall, coupled with the fact that Argentina was both woefully underpopulated with little infrastructure at the time period, Patagonia was snapped up by the Brazilian Empire, just as much of the South America. However, I do believe that a Hispanophone (as opposed to a Portuguese Lusanophone) caudillo might one day rise to power in the region, and try to secede. The book does say that "Dom Pedro's shadowy realm" is incredibly unstable, though I don't think that it would necessarily fall apart, just the leadership changes constantly.

2. As for my Five Tribe Nation idea- I'm still trying to develop it. I'm thinking that the nation itself is in a very small area, and survives through preservation of knowledge and technology, and utilizing the tech to keep the surrounding villages in line. Those villages, in turn, pay tribute and defend the actual Nation. However, it is true that by the 1870s the Five Civilized Tribes were in a decline, so maybe the idea won't work out. I'm thinking that they were reinforced by the more specialized and resourceful refugees, mostly Southern and ex-Confederate (remember the Indians were on their side in the ACW.)

3. If it wouldn't work, does anyone think that there might be any coherent Amerindian nations existing after the Fall? It can be nomadic or sedentary.

4. I'm also going to write about how someone with foresight actually leads a smaller version of the Exodus from the U.S. to Mexico, to jumpstart my United States of Mexico idea. So, were there any inspiring and/or competent American politicians or military leaders in 1878?

5. Ivan Druzhov, you out there? You made the original map. Are you interested in this project?

6. As for African nations, I think the Ethiopia would be the most important and sophisticated. Like Madagascar, it's a British ally, giving bases. It's near the horn of Africa, which the Caliphate wants (Somalia and whatnot), and so the Imperial Navy gives it protection.

7. Ironically, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church's continued existence alongside the Egyptian Copts has made the Monophysites/Oriental Orthodox Church the second or third largest Christian branch in the world, since Catholicism is divided between the Amexicans, the Brazilians, and the French-outre-mere.

8. I also think a Zululand kingdom is very possible. The Zulus are still around since they were not defeated in 1879. I think it's possible that the Sirkar treats it very much in the same way as a client kingdom like Nepal or Rajputna, rather than an independent nation like Madagascar. The fact that the Imperial forces recruits from the Zulu as they do with the Indian marital castes is one of the major sources of contention between the Sirkar and the Cape.

9. The few non-Aussimilated Maori are probably treated the same way. The Aussies are less upset about it, though. I expect the Imperial forces are even more diverse and colorful than as portrayed in the book.

10. I just skimmed "Shikari in Galveston" at a bookstore yesterday. The book mentions that a few cities in ex-Mexico have preserved literacy and gunpowder upon a giant peasant mass. I'm going to actually dispute Stirling here and say that while that may be somewhat true, Eric King's observations and the appendices of The Peshawar Lancers are both somewhat coloured by the perceptions of Imperial superiority. Here is the dark side of Raj hegemony- while they acknowledge states that are either subservient (Madagascar, Batavian Republic), allies (France-outre-mere), neutral and self-seeking (Brazil), or outright enemies (everyone else), there isn't a real desire to help or recognize the USm, which is in its way of complete domination of North America. Racial issues might be at work here. Perhaps some Imperial historians believe that the U.S. would have eventually rivaled or even overtaken British might, had the Fall not occurred. Therefore, in North America the Imperials take the attitude of "lucky about the Fall, eh?", and are fairly condescending to its inhabitants. Thus, there's a deliberate inclination to both ignore and underestimate the American-Mexican state.

11. Here's my take on the Siamese Wars mentioned in the book:

The First Siamese War was fought in order to gain a sphere of influence of the nation against the Nipponese, and the Second Siamese War was fought in order to preserve it. Siam basically owns Laos and Kampuchea, as in OTL, whilst the Raj claims Laos, Cambodia and some other regions for France-outre-mere (in order to have happy relations, and all that). Those regions are currently under Dai-Nippon's rule, due to wins from after SWII, while the Raj annexed western OTL Thailand from the traitorous Thai.

Aside from that, Siam is doing quite well, as in OTL, playing off the colonizers against each other whilst absorbing trade and technology from both. It has begun to emerge as a potent, modernized independent buffer state, unless a third SW wipes it out. It'll probably become a client state like Madagascar under the Raj, or maybe Dai-Nippon's first actual satellite (as opposed to conquered territory for assimilation).

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Ah-kuh. Ah-kuh.

 

[Rahul]

sounds interesting.

 

[Beowulf2005]

Maybe the groups of Mormons throughout the Southwest (my hometown was founded by Mormons) try to pick up the pieces and start over.

 

[Grey Wolf]

Northern Argentina in a devastated state might be swallowed up as a protectorate of the Brazilian Empire, but Patagonia seems far less likely to be. I could see a resurgent Mapuche nation there. What is the exact date of The Fall in the book anyway ? 1878 ? Its only a decade or so after the Argentine conquest.

As for native American states, better look to those such as the Apache who continued beyond OTL 1878 rather than for a rebirth of those who were by that time already subjugated. Though, again, like with the Mapuche anyone who has been put down SINCE the American Civil War is in a position to be reborn. I think that includes quite a few out West ?

By the way, I love the idea of the Lemur Throne !

Grey Wolf

 

[Ivan Druzhkov]

Don't worry, I'm still here. I've just been swamped a bit with work, and haven't been able to get here lately. Since Russia is my country of interest, I'm willing to come up with some ideas for how the Russian Empire/Remnant could have developed. I'll probably end up making them somewhat more pleasant than they are in the novel, but I can probably explain that away by good old-fashioned Raj snobbishness.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Thanks! I'm not even really looking for anyone to help- I just need a lot more feedback on plausibility and suggestions. But I'm glad that someone is willing. I thought that you might be interested, since you did create the original fan map.

Also, it's called Russian "Remnant" as following the Star Wars Expanded Universe- after Return of the Jedi, what was left of the Empire was named the Imperial Remnant. Also, it gives off a sinister vibe.

 

[Hendryk]

Perhaps France-outre-mer should be referred to as the Eagle Throne rather than the Rooster Throne. True, the rooster is the informal national symbol, but in OTL both Napoleons (I and III) used the eagle as a symbol.

 

[wkwillis]

You can figure that 99% of the westerner farmers died, ditto the pastoralists, but only 90% or less of the hunters. They are going to be good at hunting and finding food. Lizards, mice, chipmunk acorn hordes, or anything else.
And much better at hunting men...
There are going to be resurgent Indian nations post fall.