The Pacific War begins without the Pearl Harbour raid. USN actions?

Here is US Pacific Fleet basic war plan Rainbow 5, WPPac-46. This was the plan that Adm. Kimmel and his planners came up with.


For a gamer's interpretation of the war plan:
 

McPherson

Banned
Before we spend time on possible USN actions, let us first account for the PH force, and what they are doing instead of hitting Oahu. We know they are NOT going to be sitting in port, twiddling their thumbs and contributing nothing to the initial attacks. The only question is if the entire KB is committed to the wake invasion covering force, or spread out in other attacks, as well. If the entire KB is at wake, there will be no need for a second attempt. And if an early USN carrier task force encounters the KB in a straight up battle, my money is going to be on the IJN, and not the USN at this early stage of the war. The only question then is, how many USN carriers are sunk. Keeping in mind that pre and early war, the USN was mostly sending carriers out singly, but even with two carriers against 6, this likely leads to 2 USN flat tops on the bottom, and little or no damage to the IJN.

I'm not too sure about that. Nagumo or Takeo were not too good. It just depends on who handles the American Flattops. Fitch, Fletcher or Brown, the Americans have a good chance. Halsey is "unqualified" at that stage of the war. Also at that stage of the war, dispersed groups favors the Americans in a flattop duel.
 

McPherson

Banned
Here is US Pacific Fleet basic war plan Rainbow 5, WPPac-46. This was the plan that Adm. Kimmel and his planners came up with.


For a gamer's interpretation of the war plan:

It was not a good plan in that it did not combine all arms in a synergistic effort. One of the reasons Kimmel was relieved besides losing the fleet was the realization that his plan sucked. The USN called it "lack of confidence" in the commanding officer.
 
I'm not too sure about that. Nagumo or Takeo were not too good. It just depends on who handles the American Flattops. Fitch, Fletcher or Brown, the Americans have a good chance. Halsey is "unqualified" at that stage of the war. Also at that stage of the war, dispersed groups favors the Americans in a flattop duel.
Too bad Spruance is still with the cruisers
 
An alternate explanation is that there was no reason for the the Wallies NOT to be cautious and zero reasons for it not to avoid massive casualties if it could. After all time was on the Allies side and there was no real reason to rush Every year the Allies would get stronger . Germany would be there in 1946 or 1947 if it needed to take that long to defeat. Why the hell should the Wallies rushed things and take maybe another 500,000 casualties if it could avoid them?
Other reasons for the broad front in OTL Europe were logistics (the Allies didn't have what they needed for a giant knife's thrust when Monty was keen for it), and theatre strategy (the knife thrust gamble would keep Allied troops along a front of hundreds of miles on the defensive rather than pressing the German's hard at multiple and widespread locations). Ike himself wrote: "The decisive advantage in gaining the Rhine River along its length was to increase drastically the proportion of the Allied forces that could be used offensively." (p. 371, Crusade in Europe). He also noted: "The combination of an overwhelming air force and the great mobility provided by the vehicular equipment of the Army enabled us to strike at any chosen point along a front of hundreds of miles." (p. 453) In pursuing the broad front strategy, the Allies were unremitting in their attacks aimed at gaining the line of the Rhine, including by the double envelopment of the Ruhr. There is no way the war would have lasted to 1946-47; indeed, it ended within a month of the time Ike and General Bradley had predicted the previous year.
 
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With the PH attack not happening, I would presume the Japanese send some part of the Kido Butai to cover the Wake assault force. Wake is the closest area to PH the Japanese are attacking ITTL, thus the most probable target for a USN response. Leaving the Wake assault force uncovered, while the Pacific Fleet had remained untouched would be suicidal. Furthermore, even if the assault force did not get assaulted, Wake itself would have been a prime target.
I can imagine 2 IJN carriers to be sent as cover force for the Wake assault force. Perhaps we get to see the first carrier–carrier battle at the end of December.
 
I wonder if this would be better for the IJN if they were able to repeat what they did to the Prince of Wales to a larger USN fleet. It is my understanding that carriers were really only accepted by the USN after Pearl Harbour. If the US uses traditional tactics against the Japanese with their carriers then the US war effort would face a major setback with most of their Pacific Fleet at the bottom of the ocean.

No, the PoW lacked air cover due to the RN being stretched thin, which would not be the situation for the USN battle fleet as the importance of air cover had been recognized in pre-WWII "Fleet Problem" series of naval exercises and the pacific carriers force remaining as an intact part of the PACFLEET in the OP's context.
 
Before we spend time on possible USN actions, let us first account for the PH force, and what they are doing instead of hitting Oahu. We know they are NOT going to be sitting in port, twiddling their thumbs and contributing nothing to the initial attacks.
The Kido Butai (1st Air Fleet) consisted of the 1st, 2nd and 5th Carrier Divisions at the onset of the Pacific war. 2nd Carrier Division was originally slated by the Japanese Navy General Staff to cover the Southern Operations (Malaya and NEI) but that was changed when Yamamato threatened to resign if he didn't get 6 carriers for the Pearl Harbor operation. I can't find anything that states specific missions for the rest of the Kido Butai prior to their being tasked to the Pearl Harbor ops but it appears they were to be tasked to support the southern operation. The only decent reference is in Bartsch, "December 8, 1941, MacArthur's Pearl Harbor", page 96: "However, the navy General Staff - responsible for planning naval operations- regarded Yamamato's Hawaii operation as dangerous and having little hope of success. It wanted to reserve all of the Combined Fleet's carriers for southern operations, not to split them between the two."

The remaining carriers of the IJN, the 3rd Carrier Division (Zuiho) and 4th Carrier Division (Ryujo and Taiyo) were assigned to cover the Philippine Island operations.

If the Pearl Harbor operation does not happen, parsing out a division of the Kido Butai to cover the Wake Island landings goes in the face of the current IJN doctrine for the Kido Butai. It was envisaged as working together to overwhelm enemy airpower. They practiced coordinated attacks with one division providing fighter protection while another division would provide the bombing aircraft; their second wave would flip-flop the division's duties (Look into "Kaigun" by Evans and Peattie to get a more detailed explanation.) Splitting up this force just goes against everything they had been working at since its formation in April 1941. Secondly, the Wake Island landings were a sideshow not a major objective. It just doesn't make sense to allocate carriers to cover this operation. The IJN would have used them to either support the main operations to the south or kept them with the Combined Fleet ready to respond to any USN offensive actions.

Again, the concept of the Decisive Battle was for the outlying islands to attack with their aircraft to weaken the advancing USN forces, the same would be done with the submarine force. The area for the Decisive Battle had advanced over the years from off the coast of Japan to just west of the Marianas and Yamamato had even proposed conducting it in the waters east of the Marianas. But the concept remained the same, to wear down the USN forces with air and submarine attacks, night attacks by light forces using torpedoes and then finally the Decisive Battle.
 
I see some contradiction in what you are saying...

The Kido Butai (1st Air Fleet) consisted of the 1st, 2nd and 5th Carrier Divisions at the onset of the Pacific war.
...
If the Pearl Harbor operation does not happen, parsing out a division of the Kido Butai to cover the Wake Island landings goes in the face of the current IJN doctrine for the Kido Butai. It was envisaged as working together to overwhelm enemy airpower. They practiced coordinated attacks with one division providing fighter protection while another division would provide the bombing aircraft; their second wave would flip-flop the division's duties (Look into "Kaigun" by Evans and Peattie to get a more detailed explanation.) Splitting up this force just goes against everything they had been working at since its formation in April 1941.
...
2nd Carrier Division was originally slated by the Japanese Navy General Staff to cover the Southern Operations (Malaya and NEI) but that was changed when Yamamato threatened to resign if he didn't get 6 carriers for the Pearl Harbor operation.


Were all 3 divisions of the Kido Butai to ALWAYS work together as a FIXED doctrine? Or was this only what Yamamoto wanted?
If the IJN General Staff was willing to split the Kido Butai and use the 2nd division to cover the Southern Operations, why should they not split another division to cover some other operation?

Maintaining the Kido Butai as one group is only interesting, if the Japanese expected the Americans to come at them in force. Which means deploying more or less their entire battleline or a few carriers. Did the Japanese believe that the Americans would immediately execute war plan orange or rainbow to reinforce the Philippines?

Personally, I think the Japanese would have split up the Kido Butai. One division will cover the southern operation, another will cover their flank --> Wake island. Perhaps they will use one for a diversionary attack for exampling striking the Aleutians to bring in more confusion/panic to the US (although it would cost them a lot of fuel)?
Or perhaps they would try to break out into the Indian Ocean earlier?

Last but not least: The power of the Kido Butai was only proven AFTER the Hawaii operation. It was the success of this operation in the operational level which consolidated the role of the Kido Butai and the doctrine that you describe: rapid deployment covering a long distance, approaching in secrecy, capability to project power while self defending itself and rapid withdrawal. All this was not evident prior to the PH operation and without it, the myth around the KB would have not materialized so early.
 

McPherson

Banned
I see some contradiction in what you are saying...[address the same.)……………...

Were all 3 divisions of the Kido Butai to ALWAYS work together as a FIXED doctrine? Or was this only what Yamamoto wanted?
If the IJN General Staff was willing to split the Kido Butai and use the 2nd division to cover the Southern Operations, why should they not split another division to cover some other operation?

-Coral Sea.
-Indian Ocean Raid.

But when it came to main force engagement or critical target neutralization (Pearl Harbor-failure.), (Darwin-success.), (Tricomalee-success.) (Midway-failure.) the doctrine was concentration of mass as opposed to conservation of force.

Maintaining the Kido Butai as one group is only interesting, if the Japanese expected the Americans to come at them in force. Which means deploying more or less their entire battleline or a few carriers. Did the Japanese believe that the Americans would immediately execute war plan orange or rainbow to reinforce the Philippines?

Yamamoto and Combined Fleet? They thought so. IGHQ and the Tokyo staff were not so sure.

Personally, I think the Japanese would have split up the Kido Butai. One division will cover the southern operation, another will cover their flank --> Wake island. Perhaps they will use one for a diversionary attack for exampling striking the Aleutians to bring in more confusion/panic to the US (although it would cost them a lot of fuel)?
Or perhaps they would try to break out into the Indian Ocean earlier?

Uhmmm. I don't think so. The IGHQ wanted to stick to their war plan which was to let the Americans come to them (attrite and deplete) and seek decision in the Mariannas Islands. This is what happened anyway and they get their asses handed to them, because it is what the Americans wanted to do themselves!

Last but not least: The power of the Kido Butai was only proven AFTER the Hawaii operation. It was the success of this operation in the operational level which consolidated the role of the Kido Butai and the doctrine that you describe: rapid deployment covering a long distance, approaching in secrecy, capability to project power while self defending itself and rapid withdrawal. All this was not evident prior to the PH operation and without it, the myth around the KB would have not materialized so early.

Shattered first at Coral Sea, the Jutland of the Pacific, and then at Midway, America's Tsushima.
 
The Kido Butai (1st Air Fleet) consisted of the 1st, 2nd and 5th Carrier Divisions at the onset of the Pacific war. 2nd Carrier Division was originally slated by the Japanese Navy General Staff to cover the Southern Operations (Malaya and NEI) but that was changed when Yamamato threatened to resign if he didn't get 6 carriers for the Pearl Harbor operation. I can't find anything that states specific missions for the rest of the Kido Butai prior to their being tasked to the Pearl Harbor ops but it appears they were to be tasked to support the southern operation. The only decent reference is in Bartsch, "December 8, 1941, MacArthur's Pearl Harbor", page 96: "However, the navy General Staff - responsible for planning naval operations- regarded Yamamato's Hawaii operation as dangerous and having little hope of success. It wanted to reserve all of the Combined Fleet's carriers for southern operations, not to split them between the two."

The remaining carriers of the IJN, the 3rd Carrier Division (Zuiho) and 4th Carrier Division (Ryujo and Taiyo) were assigned to cover the Philippine Island operations.

If the Pearl Harbor operation does not happen, parsing out a division of the Kido Butai to cover the Wake Island landings goes in the face of the current IJN doctrine for the Kido Butai. It was envisaged as working together to overwhelm enemy airpower. They practiced coordinated attacks with one division providing fighter protection while another division would provide the bombing aircraft; their second wave would flip-flop the division's duties (Look into "Kaigun" by Evans and Peattie to get a more detailed explanation.) Splitting up this force just goes against everything they had been working at since its formation in April 1941. Secondly, the Wake Island landings were a sideshow not a major objective. It just doesn't make sense to allocate carriers to cover this operation. The IJN would have used them to either support the main operations to the south or kept them with the Combined Fleet ready to respond to any USN offensive actions.

Again, the concept of the Decisive Battle was for the outlying islands to attack with their aircraft to weaken the advancing USN forces, the same would be done with the submarine force. The area for the Decisive Battle had advanced over the years from off the coast of Japan to just west of the Marianas and Yamamato had even proposed conducting it in the waters east of the Marianas. But the concept remained the same, to wear down the USN forces with air and submarine attacks, night attacks by light forces using torpedoes and then finally the Decisive Battle.
This is probably one of, if not THE best, responses I have ever read, as it is loaded with facts and information, and even has mention of reference works that I can peruse at my leisure! I want to give a well earned shout out to @Gunner's_Quadrant for such a well done and informative reply.

When I first looked at the OP for this thread, I started looking at the map and asking myself, what else would the Japanese attempt on Dec 7th, if Oahu was off the table, and then realized that either they would have to use the KB in the south, or else at Wake. Wake is not an important enough target to warrant the full attentions of the entire KB (as you yourself pointed out), and we know then that either the entire KB maintains cohesion as a single force, or is broken up and used in separate battles in multiple other places. Given that the Japanese were not ones to let forces sit around and do nothing, I'm thinking that their single most potent force is going to be USED right from day one, so that rules out sitting back and doing nothing rather convincingly, so it's either Wake, as a single force, or various operations in the SRA, which means breaking up their force.

When I thought about that, I then had to come up with a rational for either course of action, and the southern resource area has far to many potential uses for the KB to be able to lend a hand, and I concluded that if they were sent south, they would be broken up and used in as many places as possible, right off the bat and until they had won the theater entirely, which would entangle them for perhaps as much as six months, and potentially leave themselves open to USN counter attacks, and the countering of which might throw off their expansion operations when suddenly deprived of the customary (but unneeded, at least to my mind) carrier support.

I then looked at what could possibly be worth the attentions of the KB to the East of North, and came up with something that, while not offering the long shot hope of a quick and glorious attack on Oahu, would at least offer up the potential to give Japan a shot at a better initial position from which to go on the wait, attrition, and then crush the USN Pacific fleet.

For your consideration, let us say that Yamamoto decides to swarm Wake with the overwhelming power of the KB, invade and secure, and get Japanese land based air in-placed ASAP, and then hit Midway island with the full force of the KB as quickly as possible thereafter, on the premise that the US defenses at midway are only going to be getting stronger and stronger the longer they are left alone, and that taking out Midway's air power is a logical next step in extending (and filling the gaps in their defensive perimeter), while maintaining force concentration in case the USN makes a mistake and attempts a half-assed intervention with a force to weak to fight toe to toe with all 6 carriers of the KB.

Yes, this is a risk (although we can surely agree, much less of a risk than OTL PH), and gives the Japanese the options to invade Midway (and lets face it, the Western Aleutians, as well) far earlier than in OTL, and allows the Japanese to emplace land based air and seaplanes forward earlier.

The US is then looking at the front lines being both the Hawaiian & Aleutian islands, forcing them to divert aircraft to these theaters even if the Japanese never attempt to push further East, and this takes away aircraft that could otherwise have been sent to Australia/Philippines.

Anyway, that is what I was able to come up with in the short term, to Justify the KB NOT hitting PH, and yet still doing something.
 
So, the bottom line is: Did the IJN expect the decisive battle to happen immediately in the aftermath or during the Southern Operation. Or, in other words, did the IJN expect the US to come at them with everything immediately, basically Plan Orange/Rainbow.

If that‘s a yes, then preserving the KB as a unified force makes sense. We will likely see the KB operate not around Wake, since trying to have the decisive battle around Wake so early was not in the IJNs interest or doctrine. They wanted to achieve attrition with submarine and land aircraft attacks first. They will probably back up the southern operation with it, meaning more bad news for the already outnumbered allied fleets/flotillas.

If that‘s a no, then splitting up the KB makes sense.

Finally let us not neglect the element of distance. It will take weeks for the US to get their slow, intact battleline to S.E. Asia. The Japanese have ample of submarines / seaplanes for early warning. Splitting up the Kido Butai will not be permanent, it can reunite, were the USN to show up.
Remember that without a PH attack, naval engagements will still be considered to happen in WWI style. The very concept of mobile carrier battles is still not ripe,
 
Probably makes land based anti-ship strike a high priority for US military planners. And that changes the naval war in a huge way as it means the Americans have to come up with something like a Beaufort in a big hurry, which they do not have.

B-26 MARAUDER coming up.

Provided it shed away his tendency of being the F-104 Starfighter "flying coffin" grandfather... at worse, B-25 Mitchells can do the same job at lower risks for the crews.

That thread is extremely interesting.
 

McPherson

Banned
Provided it shed away his tendency of being the F-104 Starfighter "flying coffin" grandfather... at worse, B-25 Mitchells can do the same job at lower risks for the crews.

That thread is extremely interesting.

AFAIK, the B-25 was not designed to even be capable of dropping torpedoes until experiments with B-25Js modified for the role in 1945.

On the other hand, Marauders operated from Port Moresby in the anti-ship strike role in 1942.

1586331846582.png

That real one is from the 22nd Bomb Group which featured in my ATL treatment of the Battle of the Coral Sea.
 
If that‘s a yes, then preserving the KB as a unified force makes sense. We will likely see the KB operate not around Wake, They will probably back up the southern operation with it
Here I am forced to disagree, because when I look at a map. the Wake invasion force is weak, and also the closest to PH of all their attacks, and therefor the most likely to run afoul of USN forces that are out and about, as well as forces that sortie after hostilities commence. Cancelling PH means that a very potent force, that was supposed to be attritioning the US Pacific Fleet at Oahu, is free to support the under strength invasion force. Having them go haring off to some other part of the pacific makes no sense, as well as leaving the force heading for wake hanging.
 
Here I am forced to disagree, because when I look at a map. the Wake invasion force is weak, and also the closest to PH of all their attacks, and therefor the most likely to run afoul of USN forces that are out and about, as well as forces that sortie after hostilities commence. Cancelling PH means that a very potent force, that was supposed to be attritioning the US Pacific Fleet at Oahu, is free to support the under strength invasion force. Having them go haring off to some other part of the pacific makes no sense, as well as leaving the force heading for wake hanging.

Plus isn't this the Midway plan, just earlier.

If Wake is attacked in Dec of 41 and beats off the 1st wave (as happened in RL) don't you think there would be a major sortie from PH as a rescue mission? Wake was the closest point to PH so the USN rounds up a relief task force and sets sail. Maybe 2 carriers, 4 battleships and numerous cruisers and destroyers as well as the transports.

I would think this would be exactly what the IJN would want them to do IF they have the Kido Butai lurking around to ambush said task force. Operationally it fits a lot of what the Japanese were trying to accomplish.

Think what the reaction would be to the US losing that task force in deep water, not the surprise situation that happened at PH. I think the public's view would be a little different then RL.
 

marathag

Banned
AFAIK, the B-25 was not designed to even be capable of dropping torpedoes until experiments with B-25Js modified for the role in 1945.
And it's not like the USN was happy to hand over their perfect superweapon, the Mk13, to the Army in any case.

But took not much change in equipment for Pappy Gunn to find that skip bombing worked far better, since it didn't have the drop requirements of the Mki13, like drop speed, and didn't need a skilled bombardier, either.
He could be left home, and then you can fill the nose full of MGs and ammo for better strafing to suppress AAA(such as it was) on the attack run
 

marathag

Banned
Think what the reaction would be to the US losing that task force in deep water,
the big killer of PH, the AP bombs dropped by Kates in level bomber mode, would not be a factor.

Being at battle stations makes a difference too.
 
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