The Netherlands in WWI

[Hapsburg]

Germany might claim that too when they annex the country Luxembourg)?

Hmmm. I've always wondered if they'd make Luxembourg an direct state territory, or a member state of the Empire. Considering that Luxembourg's Grand Ducal family was german, they might make it a member-state and maybe even raise it to a Kingdom status.

Even more interesting would be if they forced the Netherlands to become a member state postwar (maybe through fear of arms). Thus merging the Dutch and Prussian colonial empires and thier formidable navies. That would be a very interesting scenario.

 

[MrP]

What was the Dutch navy like at this time? Might it help provide a better counterweight to the Royal Navy?

When looking around the internet i found out that the Dutch Army consisted of 4 divisions, I can't find any information about the size of its navy. (i can find only sites about the dutch navy during world war 2)

The Dutch weren't too hot navally (numbers-wise, anyway). I'll dig out the figures, but essentially, there's nothing more imposing than coastal battleships. If the war's delayed by four years or so, there'll be a small but dangerous battleship (German built, 20,668t, 21knots, 8 * 13.5", 16 * 5.9", 12 * 75mm) guarding the Dutch East Indies (quoting Conway's: "had the programme been adopted, the first ship would have been laid down in December 1914 and complete in 1918."). Otherwise, nothing substantial, really. Their light warships may prove handy to the Germans, as will the basing, I guess.

Dutch Navy in WWI:

6 Coast defence ships built '94-'06, and having no more than 5,000 t
4 obsolete cruisers ('96-8) of under 4,000 t displacement
18 obsolete Torpedo Boats ('87-'04) of 140t of less

Modern:
1 coast defence ship (6530t)
Quite a few destroyers, subs and various small craft, though completion of many was hindered by wartime limits

The Dutch could have supported the Imperial Navy to a certain extent, had it been an ally. But there's little motivation, if you ask me. Holland can't defend or resupply the Dutch East Indies - which are far more valuable than Germany's colonies. And given RN naval mastery, any other provinces are open to conquest. If you could kick-start the plans for naval defence to '08 or so - in response to the swelling IJN, then you might have a full squadron of BBs or BS with 12" guns in the Indies. Whether they could stop the IJN (their likely opponents), I don't know. But they can certainly hurt them.

As for helping the Entente, that's the more probable course if colonies are considered. But it screws them over re the homeland. I think Benedict has pointed out in the past that Belgium was sympathetic to A-H's claims v. Serbia . . . and only got driven to the Entente because of the invasion. Best option with Holland, too, I agree.

 

[Smaug]

Ludendorff fled to Sweden after the war was over, but he eventually came back and joined the Nazis for a while, eventually leaving because he considered them to be too moderate.

Ludendorff fled to Sweden after the war was over, but he eventually came back and joined the Nazis for a while, eventually leaving because he considered them to be too moderate.

For some reason, I find humor in that:l

 

[JHPier]

I think that the Netherlands joining Germany out of oits own free will is highly unlikely.
The policy of Neutrality was deeply ingrained by 1914.

And what would have been the point?
Colonial gains are very unlikely with Britain on the opposing side.
Union with the Flemings was only desired by a fringe of hyper-nationalists insignificant in numbers.

 

[Smaug]

Hmm. I think the most interesting option (from our AHer point of view) with regard to long - term effects would be the Dutch joining the Central Powers, those still loosing the war as in OTL, but with most of the Dutch East Indies (in particular the Palembang oil fields) going to Japan after the war. Which i'd consider quite possible, since Holland on the side of the Central Powers will mean that British strengh will be tied up even more than OTL on the Western Front.
A Japan with sufficient "domestic" oil production for it's needs would change everything in the Asian theater later on.

I've mentioned this in other threads and I think it might make a mess of things. Aside from the oil, it gives them a perfect jumping off point to the rest of thier objectives in the South-East Pacific. If they have the oil, they just need Iron and the other minerals that make an industrial power great. For Japan this would probably be Manchuria, or Siberia.

At any rate it would muss things up

 

[Canis Lupus]

Rather than start a new thread, I figured I would just bring this one back up.


My main question is, what would have to change for the Netherlands to join the CP?

 

[pompejus]

My main question is, what would have to change for the Netherlands to join the CP?

It shouldn´t be that hard. There were enough people supporting it OTL. Maybe another elected government would be enough. Or some kind of incident with the Belgian government a couple of years earliers. Something about the treatment of the Flemish people perhaps.
Maybe all it takes is a friendly message from the Germans just before they invade Belgium and France: "Let us pass through your country or else you are going to regret it".

I am not certain it will help the Germans, the Dutch army was in a terrible state. The only thing it would be useful for is perhaps occupying Belgium, freeing German troops that could be useful at the front. Maybe that and the access to the Dutch infrastructure would be enough to tip the balance of the scales towards the Germans. If not the Netherlands loses all (or perhaps most if the entende is generous) and Zeelandic Flanders and Southern Limburg to belgium.

 

[BrotherToAll]

What is the state and quality of the Dutch Army in 1914? Can the Netherlands contribute enough to make a serious difference?

 

[Gud]

What is the state and quality of the Dutch Army in 1914? Can the Netherlands contribute enough to make a serious difference?

The Dutch army had approximately 200,000 men in 1914, consisting of roughly 125,000 conscripts and 75,000 Landweer (some kind of Militia) Furthermore, there was an untrained reserve force of 290,000 men.

The main infantry rifle was the Austrian Steyer-Mannlicher model '95. A new machine gun, the "Schwarloze machine gun" (propbably of German origin) was introduced in 1906. New artillery (75mm Krupp field guns) were introduced in 1904. A new "modern" uniform was introdcued in 1912. In 1913 a military car corps was formed consisting of 34 moter cars and 13 motercycles. In the same year an Air corps was formed consisting of 4 aircrafts.

The Dutch army mobilised on August 1, 1914. It took 3 days to mobilise roughly 177,500 soldiers, 6,600 horses, 400 field guns and vehicles to the appointed fortifications and lines.

 

[Parma]

The state of the army in 1914 was not as bad as in 1940, as is stated in the above the equipment was up to date.The quantity of some material and training of the troops could be a point of consideration.
The mobilisation was as well, relative fast and efficient, this was learned from the disatrous mobilisation during the 1870 Franco Prusian war.
The fleet was relative modern but due to the advent of the Dreadnought technacal obsolete. The heavy units were never build for fleet to fleet actions but just as colonial guards to minor intruders. An obsolete pollicy, which was changed by adopting the fleet plan of 1912. Which did not find execution due to the war.

The officers and a large part of the population fafoured the Germans before the outbreak of the war, for reasons mentioned at the start of the thread. This changed completely when the Netherlands was flooded with refugees from Belguim and their stories of German atrocities reached the public.
The fact that the supreme comander General Sneijders, fafoured the Germans was that he had blind admiration for the Prusian military system, was totaly defalistic about his own army and had totally no political notion what would happen outside the Europena theater.
The East Indian colonies were absolute vital for Dutch economy at that time. Chosing the Entente side would result in emidiate ocupation by the British.
Giving up neutrality even if it was for a part of the country without a fight was not a part of Dutch habit, even if resistance is pointles (see OTL 1940 reaction). So a deal with Germany will not be an option.
If Germany invade the Netherlands, border fights will take place even limited batles in the south and east before the Dutch army retreat behind the rivers or later the Waterline. The trick of the inundation of this water line are that it is to deep to wade through but to shallow to cros it by boat, so aprox. 0,5 meters and not 2,5 meters. Even around Amsterdam there was a 2nd waterline, build during the las 40 years as a National Redoubt.
If this happend it would also not be an advantage for the Allies since it is equaly hard to stage a counter attack for positions behind a water line.

But what if the Netherlands joins the Alied side in let say 1916, after the disastrous Somme offensive, the Gouverment made deal with the Allies for considerable teritory exchange from Germany, Lets say Cleve, Betheim, Julicj, Ost Frisland, a bit of Hanover and even Olden burg perhaps. If they play well a part of West Afrcan holdings, evem they were never profitable.

In exhange it will made full attack on the Rurh earea. Train and equip the more than 150.000 Belgian soldiers who were located in the refuge camps, who can make an advance in to Belguim. A real stab in the back. It would ruin the diplomatic relations with Germany for a very long time but who cares. Maybe the German Emipre disolves, it excisted just for 40 years, with too much domination of Prusia.

 

[pompejus]

If Germany ivade the Netherlands, border fight will take place even limited batles in the south and east before the Dutch army retreat behind the reivers or the Waterline. The trick of the inundation are that it is to deep to wade through but to shallow to cros it by boat, so aprox. 0,5 meters and not 2,5 meters.
If This happend it would also not be advantages for the Allies since it is equaly hard to stage a counter attack for positions behind a water line.

True. A couple of weeks ago I toyed with the idea a reviving this thread with the idea of reviving this thread (or creating a new one) with this premise. The Germans invade the Netherlands as well as Belgium with an alternate Schlieffenplan. You descibe exactly what I predicted what would happen. The Dutch retreat behind the waterline. The Germans will be stopped there, also because they will focus on France and not the Netherlands. There the Dutch can hold the Germans basicly for the rest of the war with the help of British expeditionary forces (for some reason I thought that those will exist for a large part out of south african troops) and colonial troops from Indonesia. In the end Germany loses more or less the same way as OTL and the Netherlands get some parts of Germany as a reward. (including some colonial possessions like part of New Guinea and maybe some German Pacific islands.

But what if the Netherlands joins the Alied side in let say 1916, after the disastrous Somme offensive, the Gouverment made deal with the Allies for considerable teritory exchange from Germany, Lets say Cleve, Betheim, Julicj, Ost Frisland, a bit of Hanover and even Olden burg perhaps. If they play well a part of West Afrcan holdings, evem they were never profitable.

You really think the Netherlands will join the war at such a late date? After it had seen the horror of the first world war? For a couple of German areas the Netherlands had completly no claim on? I doubt that. Still i like yout idea of Bakker/Schut after world war one. If the netherlands were invaded by the Germans they would probably demand those areas (and not get them, looking at what Belgium and France got from Germany after WWI, East/Frisia is the most they get I suspect), but they wouldn´t enter a war for it.

 

[Parma]

You really think the Netherlands will join the war at such a late date? After it had seen the horror of the first world war? For a couple of German areas the Netherlands had completly no claim on? I doubt that. Still i like yout idea of Bakker/Schut after world war one. If the netherlands were invaded by the Germans they would probably demand those areas (and not get them, looking at what Belgium and France got from Germany after WWI, East/Frisia is the most they get I suspect), but they wouldn´t enter a war for it.[/quote]

It would be a kind of ''Italian Move'' to do this. At that time the Dutch were gouverened by the right man a Prime minister who dealt very well witht the crisses, not much change he will pounder in to a bloody mess as the war was turned.
But suppose the Germans were really pressing, and in a wave of panic, opportunity or what ever, The Hague made contact with London?
The Dutch army and a Belgian army (even they were in a kind of POW camps) at the back side of Germany, could be a opportunity the British are willing to take.
By the way Cleve(with Gelre), Bentheim and East Frisia, had historical and cultrural stronger bonds with the Nehterlands than with Germany. So anexation of these teritories, or more, what ever the benefit will be is not so strange.