The Mongols Conquer Most of Europe.......

Hmmm...
The map and the borders:
I doubt that the borders would be there... at all. First of all, Mongols got quick and easy victories on the steppes and desert, prime horseback battlefields. Germany, Italy, etc. were full of mountains, swamps, forests, etc. I.E., migraines for the men on horseback. I doubt it would be quick and easy, it would most likely be long and bloddy.
The Mongols were seen as barbarians, I also doubt that droves would just surrender to them.
Another thing, why would they not take Denmark and Scandinavia and etc.? Still, might be a solid TL in the making, nice job.
 
Communist Wizard - you're back!

You've been away for quite a while...

First of all, Mongols got quick and easy victories on the steppes and desert, prime horseback battlefields. Germany, Italy, etc. were full of mountains, swamps, forests, etc. I.E., migraines for the men on horseback. I doubt it would be quick and easy, it would most likely be long and bloddy.

Not neccesarily - the Mongols also didn't have too much trouble with conquering the Caucasus, in spite of the fact that that campaign mainly took place in Europe's roughest mountains.

Besides, the Mongols included lots of soldiers from previously conquered areas in their armies, and they also forced nations that had submitted to them to send troops and join them on their campaigns.

Mongols on horseback may have some trouble with most terrain in Europe, but I doubt wether the same thing would go for Russians and Hungarians who had joined the Mongols...

The Mongols were seen as barbarians, I also doubt that droves would just surrender to them.

One word - terror.

Regardless of how the Mongols were regarded, the sheer terror they inspired, along with their reputation of invincibility, made sure that people surrendered in droves to them anyway.

Another thing, why would they not take Denmark and Scandinavia and etc.? Still, might be a solid TL in the making, nice job.

Scandinavia has a lot of difficult terrain, and more importantly, it is far from rich.

Therefore, it's not unlikely that the Mongols wouldn't really bother with that place.

Nonetheless; if the Mongols manage to take northern Germany and the Low Countries, then it seems only logical that they'll also go for mainland Denmark.
 
Hmmm...
The map and the borders:
I doubt that the borders would be there... at all. First of all, Mongols got quick and easy victories on the steppes and desert, prime horseback battlefields. Germany, Italy, etc. were full of mountains, swamps, forests, etc. I.E., migraines for the men on horseback. I doubt it would be quick and easy, it would most likely be long and bloddy.
The Mongols were seen as barbarians, I also doubt that droves would just surrender to them.
Another thing, why would they not take Denmark and Scandinavia and etc.? Still, might be a solid TL in the making, nice job.

The Mongols conquered on pretty much every terrain imaginable. They conquered China. China was at that time, significantly ahead of Europe in all (nearly all?) areas of military technology, including fortifications, and varied in its environments. They fell to the Mongols. Europe mid-13th century is politically divided: the Emperor Frederick II engaged in war with the Papacy (no pope circa 1241-43 as previously mentioned), and I think that he would fight the Mongols; and the French King Louis IX (St. Louis) was a crusade addict, he would definitely rally his French host to battle the demon Mongols, and he would lose and die gloriously. The King of Hungary was already dead, killed by the Mongols in one of their scouting missions in '41 or '42. The English King, Henry III was incompetent, and I don't think he would venture onto the continent to fight the Mongols.

Basically I think that the Mongols will go burning across Germany, aiming to sack the Low Countries. Frederick and Louis will both want to fight the Mongols. Frederick will face them as they burn through Germany. He loses and flees to his power base in Sicily. Louis faces them next. He dies in the battle.

Frederick has decided that fighting the Mongols is not a good idea, and withdraws his forces to Sicily. The Mongols sack the low countries. With the Emperor having abandoned them and Louis dead (without male issue), the French and German princes decide they don't want to fight the Mongols anymore.

This may not be the exact way that it plays out, but the Mongols will destroy the continental monarchs. With this chaos, and the tour de force that the double victory will create, the German and Louis princes might keep fighting. Maybe a new German Emperor rises to unite the scattered Christian princes, and goes for round 2. But I'm a really big Mongol fan, and I think that they are basically unstoppable in this situation. They'll smash whatever the princes throw at them, and they'll conquer Europe. Then they will convert to Roman Christianity, and become Holy Roman Emperors.
 
The Mongols conquered on pretty much every terrain imaginable. They conquered China. China was at that time, significantly ahead of Europe in all (nearly all?) areas of military technology, including fortifications, and varied in its environments. They fell to the Mongols. Europe mid-13th century is politically divided: the Emperor Frederick II engaged in war with the Papacy (no pope circa 1241-43 as previously mentioned), and I think that he would fight the Mongols; and the French King Louis IX (St. Louis) was a crusade addict, he would definitely rally his French host to battle the demon Mongols, and he would lose and die gloriously. The King of Hungary was already dead, killed by the Mongols in one of their scouting missions in '41 or '42. The English King, Henry III was incompetent, and I don't think he would venture onto the continent to fight the Mongols.

Just as an aside, but unless this is some timeline, the King of Hungary didn't die in '41 or '42. He didn't die to the Mongols at all and was reasonably effectively at rebuilding and fortifying his ravaged country. Infact if you look at how quickly Hungary recovered from the Mongol invasion you get a glimpse of the vitality possible in middle ages Europe.

Mongol invincibility shouldn't be exaggerated. They were defeated in Vietnam, Japan and by the Egyptian Mamluks. European division could be as much a strength as a weakness. It certainly didn't prevent them launching 'international crusades' (of varying success against a notionally "superior" foe). Further more, division means that the Mongols cannot simply perform a coup de grace, get a puppet ruler and bam, they rule all of Europe. Universal empire in Europe is dead, it has been since Charlemagne going on half a millenium ago. The feudal system had been imposed exactly to mitigate or defeat the kind of nomadic invaders who existed before the Mongols. Every single noble from the Emperor down to the lowest knight is seeking at once to defend and then to expand his interests. If they kill the emperor, the nobles will not just bow down and accept a new puppet, they shall seek to take advantage of the situation. Any Mongolian occupying force is going to be small, far smaller than that which is required to effectively govern all of Europe. The imposition of a new "universal" European khanate will have to be an entirely artificial construction which will require a complete change in society from the top down.

Basically I think that the Mongols will go burning across Germany, aiming to sack the Low Countries. Frederick and Louis will both want to fight the Mongols. Frederick will face them as they burn through Germany. He loses and flees to his power base in Sicily. Louis faces them next. He dies in the battle.

How exactly do the Mongols go "burning across Germany". Seiging castles is a lengthy process. If they ignore these castles then their supply lines are effectively nonexistant. They can slaughter alot of the population, possibly manage to feed their horses (although its unlikely, Europe just doesn't have the agriculture for the horse intensive system of the Steppe, pushing 5-10 horses per man) and then find themselves surrounded by the vast feudal levy of the European powers. If they win one battle, unless its vast in scale and literally wipes out all the nobility of the HRE, another force will be relatively swiftly assembled. Didn't the conquest of China take something in the region of 65 years? Something on the time scale of that could well conquer Europe, but it would require a significantly more concentrated and protracted effort than seems to be being implied. Sixty five years might be too much, but at a minimum I think it should be 10-20 years, not the smash and conquer idea which seems to be suggested.

Europeans are also capable of adapting, as the Muslim Mamluks did, to the Mongolian method of war. There won't just be reruns of Legnica/Mohi again and again the length and breadth of Europe.

Frederick has decided that fighting the Mongols is not a good idea, and withdraws his forces to Sicily. The Mongols sack the low countries. With the Emperor having abandoned them and Louis dead (without male issue), the French and German princes decide they don't want to fight the Mongols anymore.

Why do the princes do this? Your completely changing the mindset of your average European prince. Its an entire class essentially bred for war. The culture of chivalry is still strong. Look to the crusades, the hundred years war and numerous other examples. The nobles want a war and if its against some pagan invader with the papal gift of absolution then all the better. These are not the 'civilised' Chinese or Muslims. The nobility are used to a 'notional' loyalty (one enforced only so long as the relative monarch is strong, which isn't often), far less than the centralised empires of these other powers.

If terror was that effective wars wouldn't be that common and the establishment of far more potent and powerful states would have occured. Instead almost every noble was looking after themselves with a limited notion of loyalty and disregard for the concequences. It is only in the following centuries that the nobility started to be reigned in and nation states began to form.

A mongol conquest is not impossible; the mongols are without a doubt the premier fighting force of the age. Such a conquest will however be a lengthy process and it will not be accomplished by a couple of 'raids' which miraculously rout (to the point of a complete slaughter) every European force in existance. A European-wide 'unit' constructed to simplify the payment of tribute would also take a lengthy time to construct and would probably require the decimation of the aristocracy.
 
Just as an aside, but unless this is some timeline, the King of Hungary didn't die in '41 or '42. He didn't die to the Mongols at all and was reasonably effectively at rebuilding and fortifying his ravaged country. Infact if you look at how quickly Hungary recovered from the Mongol invasion you get a glimpse of the vitality possible in middle ages Europe.

Your quite right.

Mongol invincibility shouldn't be exaggerated. They were defeated in Vietnam, Japan and by the Egyptian Mamluks.

These losses are exceptions that prove the point. After conquering all of China the Mongols then had enough military and political power to waste armies of thousands in pointless wars on the periphery of their empire.

The Egyptian Mamluks victory over the Mongols was while Hulegu Khan and the main force had returned to Mongolia to elect a new Great Khan. The man Hulegu left in charge decided to keep expanding with his much reduced forces, and this is the army that the Mamlukes defeated.

Nit-picks I won't mention.

Further more, division means that the Mongols cannot simply perform a coup de grace, get a puppet ruler and bam, they rule all of Europe. Universal empire in Europe is dead, it has been since Charlemagne going on half a millenium ago.

I simply don't agree with you on this point. Europe already was a universal state. The Church was the universal state, and the Emperor was its protector. The Holy Roman Empire was not called the Kingdom of Germany for a reason. The King of Germany, Otto, became the Holy Roman Emperor, Otto I, (962) because he expanded his dominion to include not only Germany, but Italy and Burgundy as well. He was crowned by the Pope. The Holy Roman Emperor was in theory (and at that time and various ones after it in practice) the first of the crowned heads of Europe.

The current Holy Roman Emperor, Frederick II, was involved in a battle with the Pope for supremacy. The Pope was the Vicar of Christ in a time when people really believed that. That this conflict existed points to the universality of the Imperial title. The conflict was between the two positions (and men who occupied them) which could justly lay claim to mantle of leadership for all Christiandom.

The feudal system had been imposed exactly to mitigate or defeat the kind of nomadic invaders who existed before the Mongols.

I disagree with you based on stuff that isn't really relevant to this thread.

Every single noble from the Emperor down to the lowest knight is seeking at once to defend and then to expand his interests. If they kill the emperor, the nobles will not just bow down and accept a new puppet, they shall seek to take advantage of the situation. Any Mongolian occupying force is going to be small, far smaller than that which is required to effectively govern all of Europe. The imposition of a new "universal" European khanate will have to be an entirely artificial construction which will require a complete change in society from the top down.

How exactly do the Mongols go "burning across Germany". Seiging castles is a lengthy process. If they ignore these castles then their supply lines are effectively nonexistant. They can slaughter alot of the population, possibly manage to feed their horses (although its unlikely, Europe just doesn't have the agriculture for the horse intensive system of the Steppe, pushing 5-10 horses per man) and then find themselves surrounded by the vast feudal levy of the European powers.

The Mongols are going to ride their horses across Europe, burn down unwalled towns and villages and kill as many peasants as they can get their hands on. They don't need supply lines. They'll attack during the harvest, living off the land, and the land will at least support a single season of campaigning. The Mongols don't need to take castles or cities. They can drive the peasants into the strong places and then burn down everything outside of them. The strong places don't produce food, and can't feed the swelled population. Disease, starvation, cowardice, the strong places fall. Happens faster with their Europeans allies siege trains.

The Mongols' goal is simple. They're going to kill lots of peasants and destroy some armies. They were capable of very sophisticated diplomacy and I think that this show of force is going to bring in the European allies that they need.

At least Louis IX, the Saint, will give them the large-scale battle that will showcase Mongol military skill, and kill lots of French nobility in the offing.

If they win one battle, unless its vast in scale and literally wipes out all the nobility of the HRE, another force will be relatively swiftly assembled. Didn't the conquest of China take something in the region of 65 years? Something on the time scale of that could well conquer Europe, but it would require a significantly more concentrated and protracted effort than seems to be being implied. Sixty five years might be too much, but at a minimum I think it should be 10-20 years, not the smash and conquer idea which seems to be suggested.

Why do the princes do this? Your completely changing the mindset of your average European prince. Its an entire class essentially bred for war. The culture of chivalry is still strong. Look to the crusades, the hundred years war and numerous other examples. The nobles want a war and if its against some pagan invader with the papal gift of absolution then all the better. These are not the 'civilised' Chinese or Muslims. The nobility are used to a 'notional' loyalty (one enforced only so long as the relative monarch is strong, which isn't often), far less than the centralised empires of these other powers.

I'm not claiming that all the nobles will suddenly lay down their arms. What I am saying is the Mongols will be in a position to offer some of the European nobility the ability to vastly improve their position within the pre-existing hierarchy. The feudal structure would work well for the Mongols, because they would be able to kill a relatively few number of people in order to inherit the power structure.

Also, the moment that they are choosing to attack is really a big part of the success of their campaign. Their is no Pope, thus no one to declare a Crusade against them, and I think that France's King would really be willing to martyr himself.

Europeans are also capable of adapting, as the Muslim Mamluks did, to the Mongolian method of war. There won't just be reruns of Legnica/Mohi again and again the length and breadth of Europe.

The Muslim Mamlukes, as noted, were at the defeated a depleted force operating at the periphery of the empire. The Europeans are facing a Mongol group that has decided that Europe is their golden ticket.

If terror was that effective wars wouldn't be that common and the establishment of far more potent and powerful states would have occured. Instead almost every noble was looking after themselves with a limited notion of loyalty and disregard for the consequences. It is only in the following centuries that the nobility started to be reigned in and nation states began to form.

Mongol terror wasn't common. Read the history of their conquests. Mountains of skulls, the skinning of entire cities. Depopulation that takes generations to come back. Europeans didn't do war like the Mongol did. No one did. That's why they won like no one ever did.
 
These losses are exceptions that prove the point. After conquering all of China the Mongols then had enough military and political power to waste armies of thousands in pointless wars on the periphery of their empire.

The Egyptian Mamluks victory over the Mongols was while Hulegu Khan and the main force had returned to Mongolia to elect a new Great Khan. The man Hulegu left in charge decided to keep expanding with his much reduced forces, and this is the army that the Mamlukes defeated.

That is certainly true, but surely Europe is at the periphery of their empire?
The Mamluks also did more than just win one single battle. While you can argue with reasonable accuracy that it was internal squabbling amongst the Mongols which prevented them being crushed, the Mamluks won a string of victories between 1260 and 1300~. This is interesting, because the Mamluks have quite a few things in common with your traditional European cavalryman of the period.

The current Holy Roman Emperor, Frederick II, was involved in a battle with the Pope for supremacy. The Pope was the Vicar of Christ in a time when people really believed that. That this conflict existed points to the universality of the Imperial title. The conflict was between the two positions (and men who occupied them) which could justly lay claim to mantle of leadership for all Christiandom.

Universal on paper but not in practice. You seem to be drawing the conclusion that the conflict implies both are equally strong, my interpretation is infact that both are equally weak. Neither side really defeated the other, both found it relatively easy to continue the conflict. Frederick effectively gained support for his Italian war by sacrificing the very authority I talked about. He granted greater independence for German princes which causes the HRE's power to weaken from then onwards. Even then there is a major difference between the "HRE" as it stood and a European Khanate stretching from the Volga to the Atlantic. In a similar vein the Pope could inspire people to go on Crusade but lacked the ability to force people to go. The Church may have been universal but its actual authority in temporal matters was limited.

The Mongols are going to ride their horses across Europe, burn down unwalled towns and villages and kill as many peasants as they can get their hands on. They don't need supply lines. They'll attack during the harvest, living off the land, and the land will at least support a single season of campaigning. The Mongols don't need to take castles or cities. They can drive the peasants into the strong places and then burn down everything outside of them. The strong places don't produce food, and can't feed the swelled population. Disease, starvation, cowardice, the strong places fall. Happens faster with their Europeans allies siege trains.

The Mongols' goal is simple. They're going to kill lots of peasants and destroy some armies. They were capable of very sophisticated diplomacy and I think that this show of force is going to bring in the European allies that they need.

So the Mongols just roam at will, presumerably in fairly significant numbers, otherwise they will be killed by simple attrition, meanwhile avoiding any and all fortifications worthy of the name? Living off the land is fine for people, it isn't so fine for horses. If the Mongols are reduced to a central European (Germany/Italy) ratio of horses (maybe one per person at best) they will not be faster than their European foes. If they are not faster than their European foes, they can be brought to battle. At this point they will find themselves forced to fight, possibly on foot, against far larger armies and they will probably be cut down. Why do you imagine the Europeans will endlessly behave in the same way, launching impetuous charges which go awry and leading to a subsequent massacre? The Mongols are not invincible. Their primary advantage over their European foes is their greater command of in-battle strategy. Yet if you remove the horses, their options are greatly diminished. A feigned flight doesn't work so well if you cannot actually escape.

If the Mongols are taking castles and cities with European (or Chinese) siege trains then once again the question of supply lines comes into play. You have to feed the people and horses who are going to besiege these fortifications, possibly for months. This is going to be difficult if the peasant population has been decimated.

Also in regards to universal positions, you can't have it both ways. The Mongols are unlikely to be in favour of the authority of either the Emperor or Pope. These two are likely to oppose them strongly. That the Mongols can find European allies against these two (only France really comes to mind, possibly Venice at a push) rather indicates their lack of universal authority. Personally I think the ability to play divide and rule would diminish as the nature of the Mongol threat was realised. A force which has ravaged Hungary is one thing. One which has routed the Holy Roman Emperor and had the Pope crushed in a carpet is quite another.

I'm not claiming that all the nobles will suddenly lay down their arms. What I am saying is the Mongols will be in a position to offer some of the European nobility the ability to vastly improve their position within the pre-existing hierarchy. The feudal structure would work well for the Mongols, because they would be able to kill a relatively few number of people in order to inherit the power structure.

Also, the moment that they are choosing to attack is really a big part of the success of their campaign. Their is no Pope, thus no one to declare a Crusade against them, and I think that France's King would really be willing to martyr himself.

The theory being that the Mongols can just kill a few people and then set themselves up as the top of the Feudal food chain. Except that this theory implies that those below them are loyal to the system. They are not. The only reason people are going to pay tribute is if the Mongols establish something which can enforce their will, i.e an occupationary force of some description. Occupying all of Europe will take far longer than a year or two.

What independence will the Mongols grant exactly? The very imposition of levied tribute, rather than military service, is something many nobles are not entirely used to and will probably resent.

Where are you getting this idea that there is no Pope from? You may be right in the very specific short term (1242?), but Innocent IV is there by the middle of 1243. There seems to be no reason why a Mongol invasion would prevent the election of a Pope.

The Muslim Mamlukes, as noted, were at the defeated a depleted force operating at the periphery of the empire. The Europeans are facing a Mongol group that has decided that Europe is their golden ticket.

They defeated a depleted force in 1260 and then went on to win several battles through the rest of the century. When the Mongols ignored basic military strategy (such as riding around Western Europe with contempt for supply lines) they paid the price. The Mamluk force may have outnumbered the Mongol force, but such a situation is likely to be repeated in Europe.

There is a difference between a carefully planned, step by step invasion over the course of decades (something which is unlikely to happen given Mongol politics) and a smash and grab raid over the course of a year or two which somehow not only brings Europe to her knees (apparently most of these battles are bloodless for the Mongols) but manages to unite her; something no one has managed for half a millenium.

Mongol terror wasn't common. Read the history of their conquests. Mountains of skulls, the skinning of entire cities. Depopulation that takes generations to come back. Europeans didn't do war like the Mongol did. No one did. That's why they won like no one ever did.

Mongol terror may not have been common, but it doesn't matter. The nobility have been bred not to fear death and chivalrous conflict, especially with the pagan or heretic, is to be commended. Obviously some people embrace this idea more than others. If anything Mongol terror may well prove to be counter productive inspiring a growth in religious fervour and a view that the end is most definately nigh. In my view comparing feudalistic Europe to the civilised and centralised Muslim and Chinese Empires isn't sensible.

If Hungary faced what can be expected of a Mongol invasion, her situation is notable. Yes her peasant population were cut down, possibly as many as half being slain. Yes large numbers of immigrants would be brought in to make up for the dead. Despite this Hungary was still capable of playing the Feudal war of the period, fighting Austria and Bohemia. If the peasants had been culled, the feudal lords who are key to the European system emerged from their forts and could and did continue to wage war.
 
There actually wasn't a Pope in much of 1241, all of '42, and much of '43, the year that the Mongols would be invading. It was rather complex, but boiled down to that the Papacy and the Emperor were having a disagreement, so the Emperor decided that there shouldn't be a Pope for a while. If the Mongols win quickly, the Church might be encouraged to just recognize the conquest, rather than face the same fate as the European princes who opposed the Mongols. The Mongols would probably convert very quickly, maybe even 1st generation, so the Church would actually be a position to give Europe's Mongol rulers the legitimacy they need to rule. Emperor-Khan Batu I, crowned in Rome, by the Pope, can't get more legitimate than that.
If this happened - not sure how the Mongols would feel about Papal claims of pre-eminence;) - it could also have a big impact on Russia and the western steppes. The Mongol conqueror's of Europe would come from what became in OTL the Golden Horde and the two would be linked for a while at least. An early conversion might well mean that TTL's GH equivalent also goes Christian, although whether Catholic or Orthodox would be an interesting point.

Also a Christian Mongol state in either area would have an extra reason/excuse for a new crusade. As such the Muslim ME might see attacks from the north before as well as the east. Rivarily between the two hordes, which occurred historically, might see the Ilkhans convert to Islam earlier and religious war causing even more devastation. :(

Steve
 
Steve's got some good points, but if I remember correctly, the Mongols were actually pretty tolerant when it came to religion. I can actually see a good chunk of the Horde converting to Catholicism if it means a more legitimate rule in Europe, but I don't think it would spark another Crusade. Not their style. Besides, after the Fourth Crusade, which happened a few decades earlier in 1202, the Church was so embarrassed with the Venetians' behavior that they probably wouldn't have wanted anything to do with the hypothetical Crusade #5.
I could see an interesting mix of Catholicism, Islam, and shamanism in the new khanate, though. Veeerrry interesting. Someone earlier mentioned a Khan being crowned by the pope, and I kept thinking of that painting of Napoleon being crowned pop in the 1800's. That would interesting if there was a Mongol version of that. Photoshop, anyone?
 
Before the war between the Golden Horde and the Il-Khanate, any pretty much any battle involving the Mongols and locals in the west ended in the defeat of the latter.

They nonetheless tried invading Europe several times after this point - especially under Nogai Khan, who was the defacto leader of the Golden Horde during the late 13th century - but now the Mongol armies were much smaller, the Mongols had to contend with rival Mongol khanates at the same time, and the Europeans were beginning to get the hang of the strategies and tactics that the Mongols used.

Bright day
There have been arguements that the Hungarian campaign was not so one-sided. If I remember correctly the big defeat was when Mongols caught Hungarians without their pants on while the latter tried fording a river to get at the former. Hungarians certainly knew some Mongol tactics as they had their own steppe people in their employ, like Cumans I think who have kept much of the tradtional tactics.

Also at the battle of Leignitz. The Mongols feinted Henry Pious to battle before the reinforcements arrive. This points to uncertainity of the Mongol commander that he would be able to fight both Silesians and Czechs.


I will make further comments when I am home.
 
Bright day
There have been arguements that the Hungarian campaign was not so one-sided. If I remember correctly the big defeat was when Mongols caught Hungarians without their pants on while the latter tried fording a river to get at the former. Hungarians certainly knew some Mongol tactics as they had their own steppe people in their employ, like Cumans I think who have kept much of the tradtional tactics.

You've got some good points; the Cumans had only recently arrived in Hungary at this point (most of them had fled westwards as a result of an earlier Mongol invasion), and I know for a fact that they retained their nomadic lifestyle for a while. These Cumans would certainly have been familiar with steppe warfare.

And given the right circumstances, you could very well be right that the Hungarians could have defeated a Mongol force in battle.

Nonetheless, I don't think that that would have made much of a difference on the long run, as the Mongols had already faced and defeated much more formidable opponents who were experts at steppe warfare, such as the Khwarezmians.

And the Khwarezmians had succeeded a few times in holding off or defeating Mongol forces - yet every setback and defeat the Mongols suffered againest the Khwarezmians only made the Mongols more determined the crush them, which they did.

Also at the battle of Leignitz. The Mongols feinted Henry Pious to battle before the reinforcements arrive. This points to uncertainity of the Mongol commander that he would be able to fight both Silesians and Czechs.

The Mongol commanders were trained to be cautious, and they would retreat rather than face an opponent of which they knew they couldn't defeat right now.

And if that would happen, then they'd just retreat and return with a bigger army.

Though I admit that you have a good point with that the Europeans could have put up much more resistance to the Mongols, I still don't think that the Mongol advance into Europe could have been properly stopped if the Mongols really went for it.
 
Though I admit that you have a good point with that the Europeans could have put up much more resistance to the Mongols, I still don't think that the Mongol advance into Europe could have been properly stopped if the Mongols really went for it.

Nor do I, but how many men and how long?

Hundred thousand for twenty years?
Hundred thousand for two years?
Ten thousand for twenty years?
Ten thousand for two?

Do they have resources avaible and mroe importantly would they be willing to discharge them?
 
130 000 man or so, wasn't it? With plans to invade Austria, Italy and the German Principalities initially? That is what I remember reading somewhere when preparing my own time line anyway. But that was some time ago and I may be misremembering it.
 
130 000 man or so, wasn't it? With plans to invade Austria, Italy and the German Principalities initially? That is what I remember reading somewhere when preparing my own time line anyway. But that was some time ago and I may be misremembering it.

That number could very well be correct - IIRC the army with which Hulegu Khan invaded Persia and the Caliphate consisted of over two hundred thousand men.
 
That number could very well be correct - IIRC the army with which Hulegu Khan invaded Persia and the Caliphate consisted of over two hundred thousand men.

So we have a number of 130 000.

Now these guys are going to eat several tons of foodstuffs every day, hmm not just several but a lot of tons of foodstuff. And they will have what half a million horses with them?

They msot likely would not be able to concentrate this force for long. Or would they? How many troops can various European countries field at this time? (I doubt that we would get united front...)

They will also need a dedicated hearthland where they could winter. Would they be able to use Hunagry from the get go?

How long can these men remain with task of conquereing Europe? What other challanges, rebllions, war await the Khanate?

Are they likely to recieve reinforcements? Are Mongols willing to stand any casualties?
 
Steve's got some good points, but if I remember correctly, the Mongols were actually pretty tolerant when it came to religion. I can actually see a good chunk of the Horde converting to Catholicism if it means a more legitimate rule in Europe, but I don't think it would spark another Crusade. Not their style. Besides, after the Fourth Crusade, which happened a few decades earlier in 1202, the Church was so embarrassed with the Venetians' behavior that they probably wouldn't have wanted anything to do with the hypothetical Crusade #5.
I could see an interesting mix of Catholicism, Islam, and shamanism in the new khanate, though. Veeerrry interesting. Someone earlier mentioned a Khan being crowned by the pope, and I kept thinking of that painting of Napoleon being crowned pop in the 1800's. That would interesting if there was a Mongol version of that. Photoshop, anyone?

DeepyBlue

The Mongols were actually very tolerant in religious terms, especially compared to Christian and Muslim states at the time. However I'm thinking that after a Mongol conquest of much of Europe such an idea might be popular for the new Mongol rulers because:
a) It gives them an additional reason for invading areas such as Egypt and Syria which are very rich.
b) It gives an outlet for a lot of the surviving military population of Europe, removing them as a source of potential unrest and by offering them a chance of loot and religious fulfilment helps bind them to the new Mongol state.
c) It also gives a way of providing ties to the surviving political and especially religious establishments of Europe. If the 'controlled' Pope calls for a new crusade to liberate the holy lands it means that any resistance to the Mongols is not just rebellion against their secular rule but verging on heresy. Could also use this as an extra reason for extracting troops from subject states that they think are inclined towards unrest, weakening them in the process.
d) Given that much of Europe is unsuitable for the Mongol lifestyle they might also have some incentive for finding employment for some of their own troops.

As such I could see reasons why the Mongols might fancy supporting a new crusade against the Muslims. They wouldn't have much religious incentive themselves but a wily Khan could find advantages in using religious feeling to his benefit.

Steve
 
I was actually thinking about the Crusader states before. In the 1240's there was still a strip of coast controlled by Latin Christians. I think that they might have already started to reap some the rewards of having the Mongols attack Europe already. Some the refugees from Europe, especially Italian merchants, were bound to be looking for somewhere that was beyond the reach of the Mongols. Using Italian boats, a lot of refugees could be brought to the Holy Land. Jerusalem was actually back in Christian hands at this time, thanks to the Emperor Frederick II, who had gotten the Egyptian Sultan to hand it over to him. In OTL it would fall again in 1244, but perhaps these refugees would manage to hold the Muslims off.

Lots of European refugees, Jerusalem in Christian hands, anyone for a revived Outremer in the wake of a Mongol invasion of Europe?
 
I was actually thinking about the Crusader states before. In the 1240's there was still a strip of coast controlled by Latin Christians. I think that they might have already started to reap some the rewards of having the Mongols attack Europe already. Some the refugees from Europe, especially Italian merchants, were bound to be looking for somewhere that was beyond the reach of the Mongols. Using Italian boats, a lot of refugees could be brought to the Holy Land. Jerusalem was actually back in Christian hands at this time, thanks to the Emperor Frederick II, who had gotten the Egyptian Sultan to hand it over to him. In OTL it would fall again in 1244, but perhaps these refugees would manage to hold the Muslims off.

Lots of European refugees, Jerusalem in Christian hands, anyone for a revived Outremer in the wake of a Mongol invasion of Europe?

You're overlooking one rather important detail - during the late 1250's and 1260's, another branch of the Mongol horde under Hulegu Khan would invade this region.

That doesn't neccesarily need to be a problem, though, as the relations between the Il-Khanate and the Crusaders was initially rather good, and the relations between the Il-Khanate and the Crusaders only took a turn for the worse after the Crusader lord of Sidon launched a raid in inland, Mongol-held territory, killing several Mongol soldiers and a minor Mongol commander.

...but unfortunately, that minor Mongol commander happened to be a cousin of the Mongol general Kitbuqa Noyen, who was left in charge of the Mongol territories in Syria and the surrounding territories.

In revenge, Kitbuqa razed most of Sidon to the ground, and soon afterwards, the Mamluks of Egypt took advantage of the recent hostilities between the Mongols and Crusaders, and managed to play the two off againest eachother, which in the end resulted in the Mamluk victory at Ain Jalut...


...But if the Crusader states in the Levant are much stronger than in OTL and now largely populated with refugees from Europe, then I doubt wether something as foolish and reckless like that raid by the lord of Sidon would (be allowed to) happen, so there is a good chance that the relations between the Il-Khanate and the Crusader states remain good ITTL.
 
But would this happen in a TL featuring European campaign?

Gladi

The details might be different in terms of the Mongol commander and the exact dates but, baring some unforeseen problem, the Mongols would seek to conquer the region. Its richer than Europe and closer to their lands in central Asia.

The only thing I could see is that if the conquest of Europe is very rapid then a Mongol led attack from there might reach the region 1st. However given the time it would probably take to secure Europe and organise the new Khanate there then a push southwards this would take a lot of doing, even for the Mongols.

Steve
 
But would this happen in a TL featuring European campaign?

It almost definitely would - the Mongols had set their sights on Persia and the Abbasid Caliphate, and they had already organized several earlier campagins in this area.

In 1240, northern Persia, the Caucasus, and the Rum Sultanate were conquered by the Mongols, so they already had a firm foothold in the area, and aside from their plans to loot Baghdad, the Mongols also had to deal with the Assassins and the remnants of the Khwarezmians.

Jalal ad-Din Mingburnu, who was the main threat to the Mongols in the Middle East, had been dead since the early 1230's, but the Khwarezmian hordes were still roaming throughout the Middle East - and most of them still refused to submit to the Mongols.

And judging from what kind of a persistent enemy the Khwarezmians had been, I doubt wether the Mongols would just ignore the last remnants of the Khwarezmian empire.
 
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