The Medici Duchess of Richmond

[Kellan Sullivan]

Henry VIII considered several possible brides for his bastard son, Henry Fitzroy. Now while most foreigners I would consider wayout of FitzRoy's wheelhouse - for instance, Louise or Charlotte de Valois, or Maria, Duchess of Viseu and Christina of Denmark - one of the foreign candidates on the list caught my attention. The Lady Caterina Romola di Lorenzo de Medici of Florence, Duchess of Urbino. Better known to history as Catherine de Medicis and who the English regarded in her regency of France as "the Jezebel of our day" AFAIR.

Now Catherine was for all intents and purposes "a commoner" when she married Henri II - despite her dowry. And as Henri II points out to the Dauphin Francis in the pilot of the TV series Reign "at least your wife [Mary, Queen of Scots] comes with a country and an army". In other words her getting a royal bastard doesn't seem to me to be totally out there - like a half-Habsburg or Valois princess. What do you think? Might she be an interesting enough duchess of Richmond? No one in France will consider Henri II wasted in marriage, and while she'd probably be an embarassment around the time of the king's great matter, Catherine demonstrated enough skill at the Valois court to sit out enough unpleasantness during her regencies, so she might do the same in London. So, if we get her to marry FitzRoy instead, what does that mean for her future.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Bumping this

 

[JonasResende]

I think Caterina might make a curious addition to the English court - if only for the territories in France she stands to inherit when her maternal aunt dies without issue. Suddenly England's holding more than the mere pale of Calais again. Could start a new round of the HYW

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

A second bumping

 

[Doctor Nero]

IOTL Henry FitzRoy had no issue because of his young age and that of his bride Mary Howard. Both Henry and Mary were born in the same year - 1519 which is also the year in which Catherine was born. If one takes the IOTL excuse of young age then they (Henry FitzRoy + Catherine) probably won't have any heirs.

It is interesting though what happens if say after Henry Fitzroy's death (1536) Catherine cathes the eye of Henry VIII and manages to give birth to a healthy son and more that live.(Henry at the time of his son's death is married to Jane Seymor but she does die on the 24 october 1537.) Of course Edward IV will only be a few weeks old if Henry VIII and Catherine does happen but if he dies like IOTL (1553) and Catherine has given Henry healthy sons the succesion might be safe.

I don't know about the religious situation of the time to say anything about that. And of course Catherine has land in France but here just like in the religious matter I have nothing to say.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Revisiting an old thread to wonder how the king of France might take the prospect of an English royal (even if a bastard) once again holding land in France? Her aunt died in OTL 1525, which means by the time she becomes nubile, la Duchessina, is already an heiress of some note (even if only in France). As I understand it, her uncle, the duke of Albany even considered the possibility of her marrying James V at one point, but Jimmy was insistent on the terms of the Treaty of Rouen.

 

[Sevarics]

IOTL Henry FitzRoy had no issue because of his young age and that of his bride Mary Howard. Both Henry and Mary were born in the same year - 1519 which is also the year in which Catherine was born. If one takes the IOTL excuse of young age then they (Henry FitzRoy + Catherine) probably won't have any heirs.

It is interesting though what happens if say after Henry Fitzroy's death (1536) Catherine cathes the eye of Henry VIII and manages to give birth to a healthy son and more that live.(Henry at the time of his son's death is married to Jane Seymor but she does die on the 24 october 1537.) Of course Edward IV will only be a few weeks old if Henry VIII and Catherine does happen but if he dies like IOTL (1553) and Catherine has given Henry healthy sons the succesion might be safe.

I don't know about the religious situation of the time to say anything about that. And of course Catherine has land in France but here just like in the religious matter I have nothing to say.

This would be a very interesting scenario if Henry VIII married her after his bastard son croaked and then the two hand several sons and heirs...

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I was thinking, that, like OTL, Caterina de Medici’s marriage can take place in 1533. Henry has already married Miss Boleyn in secret, plus had her crowned and whatnot. So, the pope, who OTL never excommunicated Henry (that honour fell to Paulus III), issues perhaps a posteriori annulment of Henry and Catherine’s marriage, with the clause confirming the legitimacy of Lady Mary. As a way of keeping channels with England open, he secures the marriage of his niece to the Lord Fitzroy.

When Caterina arrives in England, her looks are considered unremarkable, so Henry VIII doesn’t issue the weird little piece of marital advice about not sharing his wife’s bed. But Tudor is as Tudor does, and sure enough, although Fitzroy dies on schedule, Caterina is pregnant. Five months later, she is delivered of a little son, named Henry for his late father. And unlike him and the Prince of Wales (son of Henry VIII and Jane Seymour), the little boy is absolutely healthy.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I was thinking, that, like OTL, Caterina de Medici’s marriage can take place in 1533. Henry has already married Miss Boleyn in secret, plus had her crowned and whatnot. So, the pope, who OTL never excommunicated Henry (that honour fell to Paulus III), issues perhaps a posteriori annulment of Henry and Catherine’s marriage, with the clause confirming the legitimacy of Lady Mary. As a way of keeping channels with England open, he secures the marriage of his niece to the Lord Fitzroy.

When Caterina arrives in England, her looks are considered unremarkable, so Henry VIII doesn’t issue the weird little piece of marital advice about not sharing his wife’s bed. But Tudor is as Tudor does, and sure enough, although Fitzroy dies on schedule, Caterina is pregnant. Five months later, she is delivered of a little son, named Henry for his late father. And unlike him and the Prince of Wales (son of Henry VIII and Jane Seymour), the little boy is absolutely healthy.

So, without being able to tie her family fortunes to the crown like OTL (Fitzroy's Howard marriage), how's Anne Boleyn gonna take what she sees as the pope still sliding his feet under the table?

Plus, will anyone back young Fitzroy, also Count of Auvergne and St. Saturnim, over Lady Jane Grey or either of Henry VIII's daughters (by sheer dint of him being male)? And what's Caterina's future in England likely to be

 

[Ciniad]

In such a scenario who would henry of France marry and what would the french king do about Henry jr fench territory.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

In such a scenario who would henry of France marry and what would the french king do about Henry jr fench territory.

In 1536, shortly after Anne Boleyn's death, the king of France - through medium of his wife, Eleonore of Burgundy, Dowager Queen of Portugal - reaches an agreement with the king of Portugal. His youngest (half-)sister, Maria, Lady of Viseu (daughter of Eleonore) will be married to François I's eldest son, François III, Dauphin de France, duc de Bretagne. However, as a way of balancing the Habsburgs being the Habsburgs, François is likewise sending feelers to London to marry his second son, Henri, duc d'Orléans, to the Lady Mary.

The king of England is favouring a more pro-Imperial policy at the time, and prefers (as do the French if they can't secure her for themselves), a match between Mary and Luiz, duke of Beja (immediate younger brother of the king of Portugal). So, while Lord Cromwell leads the frogs in a merry dance for the prospect of an English match (another possibility raised is the duke of Lorraine, but he's already betrothed to Anna of Cleves), François I likewise sends marriage proposals to Copenhagen and Krakow. He strikes gold in Krakow, since while Denmark has two of age princesses (Kristina and Dorothea), there father has a) been deposed, and b) they're likewise Eleonore's nieces; and the next princess Denmark has available is still in the nursery), when he and King Sigismund Stary agree to a match between Henri, duc d'Orléans and either one of the Polish king's elder daughters - Isabella or Zofia. Although Henri himself prefers Zofia, the French king likes the offer of Isabella, and her marriage negotiations to the King of Hungary are quickly suspended (and shifted to Zofia), while new ones are opened with the French.

There is method to François' madness. True, as far as the Valois are concerned, the Sforza claim to Milan is illegitimate; but Isabella's mother is a Sforza. And his intentions, are to allow Henri to succeed as duke of Milan, while François succeeds as king of France.

Pity life doesn't work like what we intend

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

The lady of Viseu arrives in France to marry a dauphin, who despite the marriage being consummated and her mother being her step-mother-in-law, dies barely a few months in. Ordinarily, the French would try to marry her to the next boy. One problem, the day before she married the dauphin in person, the duc d'Orléans was married by proxy to the Princess Isabella. And the day after his brother, the Dauphin married, he set off for Poland to fetch his bride. So now, Dowager Dauphine Marie, dressed in her widow's weeds, is escorted to the Hôtel de Tournelles in Paris to wait out the usual three months following the death of a French royal male, to see if she might be pregnant.

Jane Seymour, the king of England's new wife, and the Duchess of Richmond's mother-in-law gives Henry his much longed-for male heir. However, despite being healthy at first following the excruciating birth (in song it will be spoken of that 'queen Jane lay in labor for nine days or more', in reality it was more like two), she collapses shortly after the feast to celebrate her churching. She's dead the next day. (Of course, there will long be rumors that she was poisoned by one of the duchess of Richmond's household - after all, the duchess reportedly has an interest in the occult, but considering that the mercurial Henry VIII doesn't even set any store by his 'goggle eyed daughter' (Catherine) having poisoned his 'beloved wyfe', it's generally assumed that the rumors are just that, rumors).

The same day that Jane gives birth to Prince Edward, the new duc and duchesse d'Orléans are married in a week-long festival in Krakow. The same day Queen Jane dies, the Dowager Dauphine has her courses.

To say that the relationship between the Dauphine and her mother, the Queen, is fraught is considered by many an understatement. Marie has grown up without her mother, and considers her as a distant figure, while Eleonore attempts to make up for lost time in the wrong way - by being overbearing. Many suggest that this is the reason that when Madeleine, her sister-in-law of late married to the king of Scots, who has died of her consumption, Marie's name is at the head of the list of viable French princesses to replace her. James, who had recently slighted Marie de Bourbon in order to marry Madeleine (Marie de Bourbon fell into a depression and died of a 'broken heart'), prefers the widowed Dowager Duchesse de Longueville, Marie de Guise - a scion of the house of Lorraine. However, Mme de Longueville doesn't want to leave France for Scotland and she has two kids by her late husband - that she would have to leave behind if she did. Maria de Viseu, on the other hand, would bring most of her staggering dowry that she'd come with to France to Edinburgh.

François is reluctant to allow that much coin and plate to leave Paris, despite the fact that his daughter-in-law has no further use for him (she's already turned down a marriage with the king's youngest son, the duc d'Angoulême).

Not to mention, England also wants to get in on the king of Scotland's widowerhood. They offer the Lady Mary (eldest daughter of King Henry). But James is making things difficult. Mary's a bastard by several Acts of Succession that the king of England has passed. Nobody sets much store by this, admittedly, but to deny that the king has done so id to commit treason. James wants Mary debastardized, with the understanding that should Henry's male line fail, Mary's descent will be first in the queue for the English throne. Henry doesn't like this idea. Edward is still a baby - Henry's had at least five sons who haven't lived past the cradle (including two that didn't even make it out of the womb), so Mary stays put, for now.

But an interesting proposal arrives for Henry from Brussels. Because he's friendly with Karl V, the Holy Roman Emperor, King of Spain and half the world, the proposal for Mary's hand comes from Karl's nephew, the Crown Prince of Denmark, Sweden and Norway. Granted, Prince Johan is not in line for any of those thrones since his dad was deposed, but he's still royal (albeit disinherited much like Mary). Johan, is perhaps in it for mercenary reasons - he sees the Scandinavian crowns as rightfully his, and England can be a good stepping stone.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Nobody got comments, questions or complaints?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Critiques and comments welcome

 

[Wendell]

I think the biggest challenge here is going to be FitzRoy's illegitimacy.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I think the biggest challenge here is going to be FitzRoy's illegitimacy.

Challenge to what? It's hardly as though Caterina herself is of the bluest blood, her family is rich, yes, but hardly royal, so I think she would make a suitable match for a royal bastard.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Of course, Caterina's first pregnancy is made none the easier by the news of her half-brother, Alessandro's poisoning at the end of 1536. Suddenly, the duchess of Richmond is being pushed as "duchess of Florence and Urbino" as heir to the late Alessandro.

No one in London is particularly interested in ACTUALLY doing anything about claims to places in Italy, but Henry (or his ministers) intends to use it as leverage. The other Medici heir is Caterina's cousin, the now hastily defrocked cardinal Ippolito. There are rumours that he had a role in the death of Alessandro, but considering that he himself was absent from Florence at the time, this is unlikely. His clerical benefices now return to the church, where Pope Paul III bestows them on his eldest grandson almost as quickly as he allowed Ippolito out of his cardinal's skirts.

Henry's plan for pushing Caterina's claim to Florence and Urbino is as a ruse to entice Karl V to let him wed Kristina of Denmark, the widowed duchess of Milan (a title Ippolito WAS angling for - probably still is) while Mary weds Kristina's brother, Hans, with a smaller dowry and no mention of her successions rights (best to put all this unpleasantness behind them, basically), in exchange for Caterina DROPPING her rights to those states in Italy.

 

[FalconHonour]

Oooh. I think this could be a very interesting scenario - and if Henry Fitzroy leaves behind a son, I could see Henry placing the boy in the Succession behind Edward ahead of Mary and Elizabeth. After all, Fitzroy may be a bastard, but his son is not... And Catherine would be ambitious enough to try to push his succession after his uncle dies in 1553. I'm sure of it. Which makes you wonder who Fitzroy's son would marry... after all, whether he takes the throne or not, as Duke of Richmond, Somerset and possibly Urbino, he'd be a very eligible young man...

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Oooh. I think this could be a very interesting scenario - and if Henry Fitzroy leaves behind a son, I could see Henry placing the boy in the Succession behind Edward ahead of Mary and Elizabeth. After all, Fitzroy may be a bastard, but his son is not... And Catherine would be ambitious enough to try to push his succession after his uncle dies in 1553. I'm sure of it. Which makes you wonder who Fitzroy's son would marry... after all, whether he takes the throne or not, as Duke of Richmond, Somerset and possibly Urbino, he'd be a very eligible young man...

Who said anything about Fitzroy having a son? *cue Jaws theme*

 

[FalconHonour]

Who said anything about Fitzroy having a son? *cue Jaws theme*

I did say IF - and Caterina is pregnant. She's got a 50/50 chance of popping out a boy at this point in time... And also, that aside, I quote: "When Caterina arrives in England, her looks are considered unremarkable, so Henry VIII doesn’t issue the weird little piece of marital advice about not sharing his wife’s bed. But Tudor is as Tudor does, and sure enough, although Fitzroy dies on schedule, Caterina is pregnant. Five months later, she is delivered of a little son, named Henry for his late father. And unlike him and the Prince of Wales (son of Henry VIII and Jane Seymour), the little boy is absolutely healthy." Your own post, my dear...