The Maid of Norway Born Male

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Kellan Sullivan, Feb 14, 2019.

  1. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Eirik II, King of Norway married first a Scots king's daughter (Margaret of Scotland) and then a Scots king's sister (Isabel de Bruce), but had no sons, only daughters to show for it - a daughter from each marriage.

    But what if his daughter from his first marriage - the famed Margaret, Maid of Norway - had been born male instead? Would a personal union between Scotland and Norway be on the cards? Or would Eirik's younger brother, Håkon (OTL Håkon V) take the throne of Norway while his nephew is in Scotland?
     
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  2. FalconHonour Well-Known Member

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    It makes no difference, if Alt! Margaret still dies on their way to claim the throne of Scotland, as she did OTL, to be honest. Boy or girl, if she's dead, she's dead.
     
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  3. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    I think we’d be seeing a personal Union
     
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  4. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Well, lets assume her male counterpart DOESN'T die en route (and that's if the Scots/English would even be willing to entertain the notion of him coming over from Norway to start with). Sure, he's the seniormost heir, but he's also the heir to another crown which the Scots' nobles might not like. Fear of being swamped by a bunch of Norse nobles, kinda thing.

    Again, this is assuming that the Scots would even WANT such a king. The Maid was fine since she wasn't heir to Norway (FWIG). Her male counterpart (lets call him Magnus after Eirik's dad) would be indisputably the heir...
     
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  5. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    True enough, though would they have much of a choice, might they try and get Eric to marry someone else then to sire another heir for Norway?
     
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  6. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    I guess it depends on who Scotland is powerful enough to rope in for a new wife for Eirik (maybe him remarrying to Alasdair III's widow, Yolande de Dreux? IDK if that's possible, but I guess any port in a storm - she's a well-connected/rich foreign princess and she's IN Scotland, so perhaps).

    Otherwise Scotland might insist on Magnus making the sea journey and Eirik refuses to let his son leave Norway (until he's 18) so Scotland turns to no. 2 because they need a king NOW
     
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  7. The Professor Pontifex Collegii Vexillographiariorum

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    Who would be the nearest alternatives to Magnus?

    Bear in mind that Norwegian rebellions/usurptions weren't rare either.

    My gut says personal union with Magnus toing and froing until he's offed and his heirs agree not to contest Norway against his cousins.
     
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  8. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Sounds about right. Norway was mostly stable - as opposed to Sweden - at that point because kings either had only one surviving son FWIG. It wouldn't be unthinkable Eirik remarries sooner than OTL, and has another son or two - not sure why the delay OTL. But I don't hput very good odds on the PU surviving longer than a generation (if that)

    As to the nearest heir in Scotland, most of the local candidates (de Soules, de Ros, Dunbar, Vesci, Pinkney and Mandeville) are through bastard lines. Balliol is senior (fkllowed by Bruce and then Hastings) all through the female line from David, earl of Huntingdon. Comyn is both through Balliol's sister, Eleanor and descent from Donald III.

    The counts of Holland are next up through Dave's sister Ada. So, I'm not entirely sure who would have the best claim.
     
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  9. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    This would be quite interesting to see, and of course and not to take from this thread, but it does make me wonder what if one of David's sons had survived and had surviving issue as well aha
     
  10. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, its messy. Cause in short we have the OTL scenario of after the Maid's death rearing its head earlier here.
     
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  11. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Of course, I do wonder what a lasting Sverre Scotland would look like. What it's relationship with England would be like. Would the Auld Alliance forged be with France? Or with the Scandinavian kingdoms?
     
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  12. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    If the Sverre line in Norway still fails, after the crowns have been (forcibly or peaceably) split, might the king of Scots lodge a claim to the Norwegian throne? And how seriously would he be able to press it - against say, a Swedish/Danish claimant? Would England support the Scots? Or would they be too busy doing whatever it was Edward II would be likely to be doing (and I don't mean Piers Gaveston) at the time?

    Also, would this spare us the carnage that is a certain Mel Gibson movie? (Please say yes).
     
  13. Clandango Disestablishmentarianist

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    Perhaps there would be able to be some sort of equivalent of a dowry, where this Valet/Foot-servant has the Kingdom of the Islands brought over with him? Possibly with promises of some redistribution of royal lands. Give the nobility some things to nibble on. Perhaps also some rights to take ships to Iceland or Greenland, where the fish trade, as well as the ivory of Greenland, was quite luctrative. Mostly as the king of Norway only allowed one ship a year to go to Greenland, meaning he monopolized the area and left everyone to die when the ship sank and ivory was no longer valuable. Though it also partially came down to increased ice from the Little Ice Age making starved more difficult. At least that is the excuse given why no one checked on the Norse there for a hundred years.
     
  14. Jonathan Corbynite with fire in heart & food in belly

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  15. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    I'm thinking Edward I would PROBABLY (albeit not necessarily) prefer an English match - or at least one to an English ally (maybe Elizabeth de Burgh, even for added giggles). Eirik II might feel differently about how his son marries
     
  16. Jonathan Corbynite with fire in heart & food in belly

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    That's why I put the youngest daughter of King Edward I and Queen Eleanor of Castile, Elizabeth on top of the list as I feel she would be the one, Eric II would feel assured of, as it forms an alliance for Denmark and England.

    The French and Low Countries' marriages would be ideal for trade deals and keeping England on their toes.

    While the Castile is a long shot for a Danish-Scot, but could be interesting.
     
  17. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Norwegian-Scot. And there had been a Norwegian princess married to a Castilian infante earlier in the century, so the shot may not be as long as one thinks.
     
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  18. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    @Jonathan, Elizabeth of Rhuddlan is an unlikely candidate, since she had been betrothed to the count of Holland since the death of her brother (Alphonso) had ruined the Low Countries' alliance - Alphonso had been betrothed to Margareta of Holland when he died. If Elizabeth's first husband dies/is murdered as OTL, Edward might consider sending her northwards to be queen of Scots. However, that seems to rest on the possibility that young Eirik Eiriksen isn't married elsewhere already.

    True, Edward I intended for Edward of Caernarvon to wed the Maid of Norway, but he might decide, in lieu of an available daughter (Elizabeth's bound by treaty to wed the count of Holland, who's being held "hostage" in England to ensure said marriage happens) to substitute a granddaughter (a de Clare seems most likely) or push the daughter of his ally, Richard, Earl of Ulster (Elizabeth de Burgh).
     
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  19. Jonathan Corbynite with fire in heart & food in belly

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    But Alphonso doesnt die until 1284 and it wasn't until in April 1285 there were negotiations with Floris V for Elizabeth's betrothal to his son John I, Count of Holland. The offer was accepted and John was sent to England to be educated.
    So with the new royal being born a male, this could change everything. Maybe Edward I of England will negotiate a marriage before Alphonso's death.

    A grand daughter like, Joan of Bar, Countess of Surrey, daughter of Henry III, Count of Bar and Eleanor of England.
     
  20. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Since she married back into England, I'd imagine Edward I wouldn't have a problem sending her to Scotland. But I think you may be right that a match to the "king of Norway & Scotland" might be seen as more prestigious by Edward I. However, I don't think Eirik II's going to be a mere cipher in this. He's probably going to be negotiating for his son's marriage as well (and that doesn't mean it'll be in English or even in Scottish, but in Norwegian interests).