The Magyars of the Po
- Thread starter Ahab
- Start date
There are three emediate effects.
1) Slavs do not become divided allowing for a strong central european slavic state to counter germanic expansion eastward
2) German part of HRE consolidates sooner and creates a distinct identity unrelated to Italy and undistracted by Italy
3) Italy is thrown into a new half a century of darkness and widespread wars with a foreign element separating them from their romance neighbours in southern France. Much will depend whether Magyars remain Ugro-Finns or become Indo-European Romance speakers.
1) Slavs do not become divided allowing for a strong central european slavic state to counter germanic expansion eastward
2) German part of HRE consolidates sooner and creates a distinct identity unrelated to Italy and undistracted by Italy
3) Italy is thrown into a new half a century of darkness and widespread wars with a foreign element separating them from their romance neighbours in southern France. Much will depend whether Magyars remain Ugro-Finns or become Indo-European Romance speakers.
1) Was there a Slavic state there in the first place? Just because they're not divided by Hungary's presence doesn't mean they unite.
2) Ummmm...the sound of things from most of the HRE centralizing timelines doesn't favor the idea that "undistracted by Italy" is necessarily all positive. And German identity is already unrelated to Italian.
There was this one, but it would still likely be destroyed in this scenario, as the Magyars are going to have to go through it at some point to get to Italy.
Sumeragi: Presumably the end of the ninth century or the beginning of the tenth, if the POD is just picking Italy over (what is) Hungary.
And if the map is correct, it still isn't All Slavs, even not counting Russia.
And if the map is correct, it still isn't All Slavs, even not counting Russia.
Umm what? Are we looking at the same map?
A hypothetical surviving Greater Moravia, or a successor state would have more interest than OTL Hungary in the affairs of fellow (west) Slavs, which would, if not lead to expansion to the Oder, then at least stop German expansion eastward. They would certainly fare better at converting the remaining pagan Slavic populations than the Germans and Danes.
A union with ATL Poland, considering OTL trends with the Polish-Bohemian relationship, could be quite possible and even likely.
Another point, if the Hungarians settled in North Italy/Lombardy, would that leave a Romance-speaking south? I suspect over time Hungarian would be quite heavily influenced by neighboring Romance languages, and Hungarian words could find their way in ATL French and "South Italian".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Great_moravia_svatopluk.png
If you have a better map I'm all ears.
Or perhaps not, because it would not necessarily be concerned with other western Slavs any more than there was an All-Norse state. I'm not saying its impossible, but it ought to be noted.
True, but not necessarily a lasting one. This could easily be broken up as well as enduring.
No, a state encompassing all the Slavs would have been thoroughly ASB at this period in time. But you asked if there was a Slavic state in Hungary prior to the arrival of the Magyars, and there was: Great Moravia.
Yeah. I presume - correct me if I'm wrong - what-became-Poland is still uniting at this point.
Yeah. I don't think Poland started uniting until ~1000. Although I might be wrong as well, so someone may need to correct us both
Looking at the map, OTL Hungary looks to be on a direct line between Ukraine (isn't that the way the Magyars came into Europe?) and Italy. So, I guess the question we should be asking is, what could have forced or induced the Magyars to leave the Pannonian basin and go west?
Great Moravia gets its act together and kicks them out?
Someone in Italy invites some Magyar mercenaries in, and they send word to their friends about what a nice, rich place it is?
Byzantines invite them in, to reduce pressure from the Lombards?
Other ideas?
Great Moravia gets its act together and kicks them out?
Someone in Italy invites some Magyar mercenaries in, and they send word to their friends about what a nice, rich place it is?
Byzantines invite them in, to reduce pressure from the Lombards?
Other ideas?
Huehuecoyotl
Monthly Donor
This one doesn't sound so far off, actually. Historically, foreign mercenaries in ancient and medieval states have had a habit of sticking around permanently.
By the time Magyars migrate to N.Italy Moravia should be history unless they go there in the first place. The Magyars entered Panonnia because they were fleeing from the Pechenegs, at the same time E.Franks used them to help them destroy Moravia. If for any reason Moravians contact them first and show them the lush plains of N.Italy instead I guess they could go there.
My guess is that Bulgaria would dominate the Panonnian plain since they allready controled parts east of Tisza. The other candidate could be Croatia, the Magyar migartion didn't bother them at all, they even smacked them on the head some 35 years before the Bavarians and basicaly established the southern border of Magayar core territories that reamins to this day. With Magyars out of the picture I could actually see Croats who were at the hight of their expasnion and foreign affairs influence after almost 50 years of unrivaled growth in power, do a "Magyar" style absorption of Slavs in Panonnia. It is often forgoten that Medieval Croats were every bit a cavalry nation as the Magyars if the Byzantine records are anthing to go by.
My guess is that Bulgaria would dominate the Panonnian plain since they allready controled parts east of Tisza. The other candidate could be Croatia, the Magyar migartion didn't bother them at all, they even smacked them on the head some 35 years before the Bavarians and basicaly established the southern border of Magayar core territories that reamins to this day. With Magyars out of the picture I could actually see Croats who were at the hight of their expasnion and foreign affairs influence after almost 50 years of unrivaled growth in power, do a "Magyar" style absorption of Slavs in Panonnia. It is often forgoten that Medieval Croats were every bit a cavalry nation as the Magyars if the Byzantine records are anthing to go by.
OK, let me create a secenario here.
In 900, the Byazantines invite th Magyars to N.Italy in order to smash the Lombards. they conqure Italy from The Papal stats to the alps, from Milan to the sea. Verona is their capital. Lets say that hungarian remain their language (but with romance influance). Bulgaria controls Panonia.
What then happens? would they follow the pop or the empror in the great schim?
In 900, the Byazantines invite th Magyars to N.Italy in order to smash the Lombards. they conqure Italy from The Papal stats to the alps, from Milan to the sea. Verona is their capital. Lets say that hungarian remain their language (but with romance influance). Bulgaria controls Panonia.
What then happens? would they follow the pop or the empror in the great schim?
The Pope is their direct enemy, the Emperor is far away across the Adriatic and E.Frankish kingdom is disunited, so I guess there wouldn't be a split because the Pope would try and keep on the Emperors good side if he doesn't want the Magyars unleashed upon him.
With Bulgarians controling Panonnia you have a state with power led by a man with both skill and ambition, Simeon, to take down the Byzantine Empire so history could go down several rutes.
With Bulgarians controling Panonnia you have a state with power led by a man with both skill and ambition, Simeon, to take down the Byzantine Empire so history could go down several rutes.
Setting aside questions of why/how they get there for just a moment, if they arrive in Lombardy circa 900 then they're still pagans. A large bellicose pagan tribe of barbarians at the cross roads of western Europe does not seem tenable. Given that position I assume that christianization would have to happen much more quickly.
TTL equivalent of St. Stephen could be a pivotal figure as it seems like their survival as a distinct people would be tied directly to how they handle their inevitable conversion to Christianity and subsequent settlement in Lombardy. Do they still develop the Apostolic Kingship or will they remain hostile to the Papacy and thus likely to everyone around them.
TTL equivalent of St. Stephen could be a pivotal figure as it seems like their survival as a distinct people would be tied directly to how they handle their inevitable conversion to Christianity and subsequent settlement in Lombardy. Do they still develop the Apostolic Kingship or will they remain hostile to the Papacy and thus likely to everyone around them.
Great Moravia and Balaton are the Slav states we know were there preceding the Magyars. There might have been others, especially in the east.
A split is possible between the Hungarians proper, who migrate to Italy, and other tribes who were with them (Szeklers, some Pechenegs and Cumans) who might stay behind.
There were Hungarian raids into Italy in the first half of the tenth century. The western successor states to Charlemagne's empire were at their weakest in the first two decades of that century, so that's probably the optimum time for an invasion. The pope would have sought help from France and Germany, but they might not have much to give.
The west was under simultaneous attack from Vikings, Magyars and Saracens. A complete collapse was not impossible.
A split is possible between the Hungarians proper, who migrate to Italy, and other tribes who were with them (Szeklers, some Pechenegs and Cumans) who might stay behind.
There were Hungarian raids into Italy in the first half of the tenth century. The western successor states to Charlemagne's empire were at their weakest in the first two decades of that century, so that's probably the optimum time for an invasion. The pope would have sought help from France and Germany, but they might not have much to give.
The west was under simultaneous attack from Vikings, Magyars and Saracens. A complete collapse was not impossible.