The Lights of Liberty - a counterfactual history

Skallagrim

Banned
GOOD LORD. :eek:

I did not see that coming. You just killed TJ. And I was just getting the impression that this timeline was in many ways about him and his politics. Now he's dead. This will certainly lead to a massive shock. Either the South collapses... or Jefferson becomes a martyr. I'm hoping for the latter.

Anyway: you're a cruel, cruel man. ;)
 
Ah, I seem to have achieved the shock and outrage I was playing for here. :cool: (I'm an evil man, I know.)


You did NOT just kill Thomas Jefferson. I'll assume that's an incredible typo that somehow took up the entire last section. :D

Oh, you optimist, you! ;)

No, I'm afraid TJ had to go. We must console ourselves with the knowledge that his death under these circumstances pretty much assures his sterling reputation for the rest of time (in the Confederacy, at least). TTL's alternate history will be full of TL's that ask "What is Jefferson lived". Most of those TLs will probably be implausibly optimistic portrayals of what wonders TJ might have worked, had he lived.


Do you hear that...???

....No?

*INSERT MANIACAL LAUGHTER HERE*

Killing Thomas Jefferson. Only Decades of Darkness and this TL have had such an impact on me by killing him in this way. Wow. Such imagery. Fantastic.

Happy ironic Fourth of July indeed.

I'm glad you derive sadistic pleasure from it. :p (But seriously, thanks for the compliment.)


That...was just diabolical, Widukind. What a hell of a way to end the chapters on North America, with Thomas Jefferson assassinated (you bastard :mad::cool:) and the "phantom warrior" concept gaining new life. The separate national anthems seem appropriate for the two separate countries, as in reality that's all they can be called now. Wow, I'm actually quite stunned by this update. Good work, goddamn you for this awesome twist, and...Happy Fourth of July? :D

It was diabolical, but that was of course the point. There's actually a thematic reason why Jefferson had to die at this point, but I'll get into that once we've finished with Part XI (which will take us back to America after Part X deals with Europe). Explaining the thematic reasoning might spoil future events.

I'm glad this update had the ability to stun people somewhat. That's what I was going for here.

As for the Fourth... ITTL, the first of August is Independence Day - and July fourth will instead be Remembrance Day in the Confederacy. A day to contemplate the sacrifices that have been made in the defence of liberty, and remember those who made those sacrifices.


GOOD LORD. :eek:

I did not see that coming. You just killed TJ. And I was just getting the impression that this timeline was in many ways about him and his politics. Now he's dead. This will certainly lead to a massive shock. Either the South collapses... or Jefferson becomes a martyr. I'm hoping for the latter.

Anyway: you're a cruel, cruel man. ;)

In many ways, TJ's politics will continue to be influential after his death. He does become a martyr this way, and his main ideological convictions therefore become almost sacred: interwoven with the very identity of the Confederacy.

Which is not to say that his sudden loss will not afflict the Confederacy in a major way. The South's saving grace might just be that Jefferson always explicitly renounced any cult of personality. In his own mind, he was always 'just one man', and the whole point is that every Southerner is an autonomous individual, who can keep going even without a leader to follow.

In Part XI, we'll find out wether Jefferson's faith in his fellow citizens was justified, and if so, to what extent.
 
Widukind, what books/sites did you use to research Hamilton?

Also, poor Jefferson. :(

EDIT: Why is there a yellow warning sign next to my post?
 
Is it strange that I whole heartedly espouse Hamiltonian ideals and believe the federalists to be in the right. It seems to me, with the benefit of hindsight, that the one true way to ruin for a nation is to halt the fires of innovation and to blindly reject the path to greatness. An agarian nation is a failed nation, no matter its social values. I am pleased with how you handle the byplay between the nations but I would ask for more imput on the part of the Northern Republic. I doubt the destruction of the public education system in New England as historically puritanism has been very friendly to public education, with an instruction that all towns needed to have a public school for education of all. Even federalist rhetoric would not change this fundamental truth.
 
YOU KILLED THOMAS JEFFERSON! YOU BASTARD! :mad::D:eek::D:mad::D:eek::D:mad:

Mine is an evil laugh. :p


Didn't see that coming.

Good update.

Waiting for more!!!

I'm glad you liked the update. The next part of the TL will commence before long.


Widukind, what books/sites did you use to research Hamilton?

Also, poor Jefferson. :(

EDIT: Why is there a yellow warning sign next to my post?

Well, being a weirdo who reads historical works for fun, I've read a lot of stuff, and I'll gladly admit that my way of writing these personages is based on an understanding of them that I have gradually formed. (I'll also gladly admit that my understanding of them is, without doubt, nevertheless very limited.) All this is to say: I'm afraid I can't refer you to all the useful sources on Hamilton I may have read at one point.

Some good works on Hamilton include the very obvious biographies: Alexander Hamilton by Ron Chernow and Alexander Hamilton: A Biography by Forrest Mcdonald. That last one in particular is useful in placing Hamilton in his proper (conservative) context, by showing the way his political, moral and economic thought reflects the ideas of several conservative thinkers.

There's also a biography of Hamilton exclusively based on his own quotes. Very telling about his psychology.

Two further biographies are well-written, but almost bizarrely biased in Hamilton's favor. Alexander Hamilton: A Life by Willard Sterne Randall, and Alexander Hamilton, American by Richard Brookhiser. Especially that last one is amost entirely blind to Hamilton's many, many failings. I would not recommend them, and I'd urge any reader to realize that those books are not impartial by any stretch of the imagination.

More useful to me in the writing of this timeline have been three books that compare and contrast certain Founding Fathers. Jefferson and Hamilton: The Rivalry That Forged A Nation by John Ferling was invaluable. Thomas Jefferson Versus Alexander Hamilton: Confrontations that Shaped a Nation by Noble Cunningham is a different rake on the same idea (but be forwarned; whichever one you read first, the other will feel like a bit of a do-over.) Lastly, Burr, Hamilton, and Jefferson: A Study in Character by Roger G. Kennedy. That one is mostly useful when it comes to figuring out Aaron Burr (it subverts all incorrect preconceived notions about the man), but is also worth reading when you're trying to get a better grip on the mindset and motivations of Hamilton and Jefferson.

As for the yellow icon... I have no clue, either.


Is it strange that I whole heartedly espouse Hamiltonian ideals and believe the federalists to be in the right. It seems to me, with the benefit of hindsight, that the one true way to ruin for a nation is to halt the fires of innovation and to blindly reject the path to greatness. An agarian nation is a failed nation, no matter its social values.

Personally, I'm convinced Hamilton (not all Federalist: hamilton in particular) was wrong about nearly everything. While both the Democratic-Republican and the Federalist factions covered a broad spectrum, I am firmly on the side of the former.

That said: Jefferson's personal love of agrarianism isn't shared by all in the South, either.

If I may be so bold as to debate OTL period politics (to explain my own thinking, and the way I write this TL): I'm convinced that free trade is good, and protectionism is bad. I'm firmly with the Dem-Reps... but unlike Jefferson, I'm convinced that free trade will lead to more rapid and effective modernization of a country. And there are many more points: Hamilton's love of a strong military etc. could easily lead to repression and tyranny. I for one would gladly "reject the path to greatness" if greatness comes at the cost of liberty.

Anyway, points of policy are always up for debate. As far as I'm concerned, everyone is entitled to his or her own views regarding economy, fiscal matters, miltary organization etc. etc. - So I don't really think it "strange" that you side with the Federalists. It's not my view, but I don't think we're here to force our own views on all others. :)

I do hope that when you say that you agree with the Federalists & mr. Hamilton, you do not mean that you also endorse repressive legislation, violations of civil liberties, religious intolerance, the mass suspension of habeas corpus and the subordination of the civil government to the military power. Because that's Hamilton's dark side right there. He's given more leeway to exert it ITTL, but it's all rooted in OTL opinions he held.


I am pleased with how you handle the byplay between the nations but I would ask for more imput on the part of the Northern Republic. I doubt the destruction of the public education system in New England as historically puritanism has been very friendly to public education, with an instruction that all towns needed to have a public school for education of all. Even federalist rhetoric would not change this fundamental truth.

Regarding education: the idea here is that the Federalists were essentially an elitist party, and Hamilton was the most elitist of them all. A recent thread yielded some examples of his general attitude towards "the masses" (which wasn't pretty). In a more polarized USA, I'm fairly sure the very Hamiltonian Federalists would seek to restrict the franchise as tightly as they could get away with. Public education doesn't fit in with their plans or their worldview.

We'll get more insight into Northern culture later on. What's actually happening is that state governments (and now the federal government), dominated by Federalists, have pretty much abolished public education. The fact that Jefferson is eagerly promoting it only increases their adversity towards it: they fear it, because it grants too much power to "the mob". (Keep in mind that Hamilton consistently used "democracy" as a dirty word.) On a local level, religious institutions are taking over that task. Most people are getting a basic education... but it's very much a religious affair. (Which only tells the Federalists that they are doing the right thing, because they generally applaud the Protestant Christian character of their nation.)
 
IMHO the death of Jefferson sort of takes the wind out of the conflict entirely for the North, if not Hamilton himself. After all, the war was billed to them as being about protecting the future of the nation from Jefferson the tyrant. The other Democratic-Republicans simply don't cast a frightening mien.

Obviously in the shorter run this won't matter as much as the field of battle, and it's far too late to put the genie back into the bottle here. But if more significant Federal setbacks begin happening, the forces within government besides Hamilton will start exerting more pressure for a settlement.
 
Mine is an evil laugh. :p
Personally, I'm convinced Hamilton (not all Federalist: hamilton in particular) was wrong about nearly everything. While both the Democratic-Republican and the Federalist factions covered a broad spectrum, I am firmly on the side of the former.

That said: Jefferson's personal love of agrarianism isn't shared by all in the South, either.

If I may be so bold as to debate OTL period politics (to explain my own thinking, and the way I write this TL): I'm convinced that free trade is good, and protectionism is bad. I'm firmly with the Dem-Reps... but unlike Jefferson, I'm convinced that free trade will lead to more rapid and effective modernization of a country. And there are many more points: Hamilton's love of a strong military etc. could easily lead to repression and tyranny. I for one would gladly "reject the path to greatness" if greatness comes at the cost of liberty.

Anyway, points of policy are always up for debate. As far as I'm concerned, everyone is entitled to his or her own views regarding economy, fiscal matters, miltary organization etc. etc. - So I don't really think it "strange" that you side with the Federalists. It's not my view, but I don't think we're here to force our own views on all others. :)

I do hope that when you say that you agree with the Federalists & mr. Hamilton, you do not mean that you also endorse repressive legislation, violations of civil liberties, religious intolerance, the mass suspension of habeas corpus and the subordination of the civil government to the military power. Because that's Hamilton's dark side right there. He's given more leeway to exert it ITTL, but it's all rooted in OTL opinions he held.
I would probably state that the dichotomy between free trade and protectionism is a little more complex than that; the development of Japan, the "late development" models of the Asian Tigers, and of China today, serve as powerful examples of the importance of the infant industry proposal of Hamilton, and the importance of state intervention and cooperation with industries for developmental states (and in many ways raises the question of how important liberal political and social mores are to actual development). Now, Japan's current OTL malaise is largely a result of a failure to shift to more open trade policies (now occuring under Abe, but he's also got questionable views), but that does't negate the undeniable role of "protectionist" or state capitalist policies in driving most East Asian economies up from poverty and underdevelopment towards "developed" parity. Free trade (and movement of capital and labor) remain important ideals and end-goals, but there are numerous corollaries to it. There are vanishingly few examples of under-developed economies developing at the same pace as the East Asian NICs today, and certainly none that pursued unequivocal free trade regimes.

So I do disagree. Hamilton, in his OTL proposals, was, in hindsight, a visionary in economic matters, regardless of his potentially interesting views elsewhere, and in many ways emulate the functionings of modern economics. Now he has interesting political views which you've certainly extrapolated quite well (I can't help but imagine what Hamilton's views would be like after being effectively blocked by Jefferson and the Democratic-Republicans at every corner for years), but I'm an unrepentant statist so what have you.

I just caught up on the timeline and I heartily approve, despite the pro-Jeffersonian slant to it. As an unrepentant Francophile, I approve of the direction that you're taking it. :p
 
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No, not the social policies, but it does seem as though Jefferson is doing everything for the wrong reasons, he wanted free trade for the farmers, he wanted freedom for the slaves but still desires a plantation style economy, at least Hamilton is upfront. Also the embargo against trade was incredibly damaging to the North. It often seems as though Jefferson was biased against us "Damn Yankees".
 
Well, I remain emphatically pro-Jefferson WRT both this timeline and RL. I will admit that Hamilton wasn't nearly as bad as all this in OTL, but then again politics weren't so cleanly divided or polarized like here either (and, in my opinion, pushed Hamilton here over the edge...like I said before, the man's sense of one-upmanship is one of his many faults, and one I think could cause him to lose a grip on reality). As an unrepentant anti-statist, I can respect seeing Hamilton's views as in some degree prescient over modern economics, although I would argue that there are others who could and would form their own theories on economics similar to his that aren't borderline sociopaths, or at best tactless, undiplomatic assholes...

@Demothenes, considering both OTL hindsight over the past two centuries, the fact that Jefferson frequently found himself in debt (largely his own fault, but also at a time when speculation, largely Northern-based, was shooting through the roof), the fact that he was NOT religious whereas the North was incredibly fundamentalist relative to OTL at that time, and the much more violent and unstable events of TTL's North America thus far, I don't blame him one bit (my own bias is showing, here). And of course, people seem to forget that just because agrarian Jefferson was in charge doesn't necessarily mean a lack of industrialization in the South or other D-R states (James Madison was a supporter of building a more sophisticated banking and taxation system like Hamilton's, and both Henry Clay and John Calhoun's "American System" was focused on industrial protectionism, the building of a strong national bank and the heavy use of Federal subsidies and assumption of debt to boost infrastructural improvements across the country...and none of those three are folks I'd ever see siding with Hamilton's bunch ITTL).

And furthermore, people seem to forget those shipping contracts in Norfolk, Pensacola and Mobile, exactly the kind of enterprise the NE was known for during its growth period (and if the Confederacy is to have a snowball's chance in hell of staying in the fight at sea, they need to build more than just a paltry half-dozen frigates: no, we're looking at a MASSIVE building program for the time period).
 
Congratulation on your timeline

Like your interpretation on the USA as confederacy government system. But here's my questions:

1. Are you planning for the UK to take advantage of the imminent ACW and seize American territories and destroy the Jeffersonian faction and aid and the backstab the Hamiltonians?

2. As for the hints of two American republics, is this what you really want as the USA as a divided nation or it's just national regional sections in name only?

3. When is your Napoleon will make his amazing debut to start your Napoleonic Wars with the rest of Europe and UK and the permanent political destructive effects on the monarchies?

4. Have you've decided to butterfly the US/Spanish War, Crimea War, Indian Mutiny and regional African bush wars from 19th Century, Ruso-Japanese War and other Pacific conflicts, WWI and WW2?

5. Technological developments, what has changed or stay the same path?

6. Future US consul and Congress members?​

That's it for the questions, so keep updating. :D
 
There should be a Turtledove or something for awesome time lines that ended like this. I wonder what happened to Widukind?
 
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