When the Chinese navy recently ran out of province capitals to name ships they started using less important cities as names.
Maybe the Germans could start using subdivisions of states. SMS Allgäu to accompany SMS Bayern?
The German Navy in a Central Powers Victory
- Thread starter cjc
- Start date
Maybe the Germans could start using subdivisions of states. SMS Allgäu to accompany SMS Bayern?
In the immediate post-war settlement I think one must decide if the UK demands (and can enforce or bribe) some "treaty" to maintain her supremacy at sea. The UK is deep in debt, dealing with break-away Ireland, discount in the Dominions and irked the Indians. If Germany has fought the war to a stand-off or edged into the Entente further than (1) collapsing Russia, (2) getting Italy to fold, (3) threatening to break through in France and (4) next poised to overrun France and secure a frontier on the Channel, then I think the UK is in a negotiable mindset. If she gets Germany to go back to pre-war borders in Belgium and France, minor adjustments possible, and same as to Italy, Britain can return colonies to secure a naval supremacy and lock Germany into the International Order. But that is not necessary.
At bottom the pre-dreadnoughts are now obsolete, the in between dreadnoughts are obsolescent to obsolete, only Konig-class and the Bayern-class are competitive. Derrflinger and Hindenburg are the same, the rest are suitable as interim ships. Until the other two Bayern can be completed and likely the L20s, we must make do with the Kaiser-class.
Unless some "treaty" intercedes, with the 4 Bayern-class and D & H Germany needs to build the Mackensen-class and L20s to get 6 decent BCs and 8 decent BBs with 4 to 8 okay ones. That counters the QE-, R-, Iron Duke-, KGV- and Orion-classes plus R & R and Hood. If the Admiral-class is built out then we might need the Ersatz Yorck-class built. And with the G3 coming soon that compels us to likely get the Yorcks and a GK inspired class to at least maintain a competitive stance. But this is an expensive post-war mandate.
For planning I would say the HSF wants two 8-ship BB squadrons and a 6-ship BC scouting force at minimum. I would argue that the 9 K and K-classes are kept in reserve with Kaisers retired as soon as we get anything past Bayern types built. That faces 10 oil-fired QE- and R-class plus up to 12 coal-fired 13.5-inch armed BBs. I think the UK is hard pressed to fund new ships past the G3-class and at that point tries to negotiate an end to the building. So we have 6 to 10 BCs (really 2 BCs plus 1 to 4 proto-fast BB and 4 1st generation fast-BBs). The UK is superior to Germany unless Italy or Japan break away and pose a separate threat.
Thus my "ideal" post-war HSF would be: Derrflinger and Hindenburg, 4 Mackensen, 1 Yorck, plus 2 improved Yorck inspired BCs for 9 BCs and 4 Bayern, 4 L20 and 6 GK inspired fast BB, for 14 BBs, or 23 capital ships to be ready by 1938. We should have Ausonia in service to get a better CV class of 2 to 3 beginning around 1935, either building or built. That faces the 5 QE and 5 R-class plus the 4 G3 on the Battle Line and 3 to 6 BCs, 4 of which could be proto-fast BBs with a class of 6 Lion-class looking BBs building versus OTL KGV unless you free money in between, or 26 capital ships at minimum. I would guess we skip Ark Royal and build either the Illustrious or Implacable-class sized instead, likely at least 3 or better up to 6. Here Japan and Italy remain allies until at least 1935 or so, after that Germany is not necessarily the only threat. I could see the 4 N3 or 4 more G3 built but that might be what tanks the economy and tilts an election. To get Germany's new fleet should take almost 20 years and stresses the budget and depends on both a recovering economy and relative quiet on its borders. Here the RN has more Dominion assets and more allies to offset the apparent weakness so I still judge the RN superior even where it suffers badly on the economy and Germany does much better.
That is my very broad brush and speculative notion without getting into the usual details that can derail these sort of things. Feel free to vary anything as you think reality hits the ideals.
At bottom the pre-dreadnoughts are now obsolete, the in between dreadnoughts are obsolescent to obsolete, only Konig-class and the Bayern-class are competitive. Derrflinger and Hindenburg are the same, the rest are suitable as interim ships. Until the other two Bayern can be completed and likely the L20s, we must make do with the Kaiser-class.
Unless some "treaty" intercedes, with the 4 Bayern-class and D & H Germany needs to build the Mackensen-class and L20s to get 6 decent BCs and 8 decent BBs with 4 to 8 okay ones. That counters the QE-, R-, Iron Duke-, KGV- and Orion-classes plus R & R and Hood. If the Admiral-class is built out then we might need the Ersatz Yorck-class built. And with the G3 coming soon that compels us to likely get the Yorcks and a GK inspired class to at least maintain a competitive stance. But this is an expensive post-war mandate.
For planning I would say the HSF wants two 8-ship BB squadrons and a 6-ship BC scouting force at minimum. I would argue that the 9 K and K-classes are kept in reserve with Kaisers retired as soon as we get anything past Bayern types built. That faces 10 oil-fired QE- and R-class plus up to 12 coal-fired 13.5-inch armed BBs. I think the UK is hard pressed to fund new ships past the G3-class and at that point tries to negotiate an end to the building. So we have 6 to 10 BCs (really 2 BCs plus 1 to 4 proto-fast BB and 4 1st generation fast-BBs). The UK is superior to Germany unless Italy or Japan break away and pose a separate threat.
Thus my "ideal" post-war HSF would be: Derrflinger and Hindenburg, 4 Mackensen, 1 Yorck, plus 2 improved Yorck inspired BCs for 9 BCs and 4 Bayern, 4 L20 and 6 GK inspired fast BB, for 14 BBs, or 23 capital ships to be ready by 1938. We should have Ausonia in service to get a better CV class of 2 to 3 beginning around 1935, either building or built. That faces the 5 QE and 5 R-class plus the 4 G3 on the Battle Line and 3 to 6 BCs, 4 of which could be proto-fast BBs with a class of 6 Lion-class looking BBs building versus OTL KGV unless you free money in between, or 26 capital ships at minimum. I would guess we skip Ark Royal and build either the Illustrious or Implacable-class sized instead, likely at least 3 or better up to 6. Here Japan and Italy remain allies until at least 1935 or so, after that Germany is not necessarily the only threat. I could see the 4 N3 or 4 more G3 built but that might be what tanks the economy and tilts an election. To get Germany's new fleet should take almost 20 years and stresses the budget and depends on both a recovering economy and relative quiet on its borders. Here the RN has more Dominion assets and more allies to offset the apparent weakness so I still judge the RN superior even where it suffers badly on the economy and Germany does much better.
That is my very broad brush and speculative notion without getting into the usual details that can derail these sort of things. Feel free to vary anything as you think reality hits the ideals.
I would recycle older ship names, especially any meritorious ones. I toy with Luxembourg as the class and Prussia as the other Kingdom, but Deutschland-class might work.
If Ludwig III of Bavaria dies around his OTL date he could well receive a L20 named for him.
Bigger submarines with more powerful engines and likely earlier true hydrodynamic hulls with true U-Cruisers a la Type 47, Type 47a, and Type 50 likely in the water by 1925 and carriers delayed as admirals favor the battleship until they have a very specific reason not to. Germany will explore its own version of a submersible carrier perhaps challenging the Surcoef in time or developing something more radical on its own.
Honestly, I expect the German navy to contract pretty dramatically immediately post-war. Naval expenditures had already dropped precipitously before the war due to the need to funnel more money to the army. I can't think of a CP Victory scenario where that changes. And while Germany was not held so by the balls in foreign debt as Britain was, they are swimming in debt themselves, just to their own citizens, which has badly tanked the value of their currency.
The good news, financially, is that this time it's Germany who's going to be getting paid reparations, and the weakened currency means they're in a good export position if they can knock down some trade barriers in the peace treaty.
So short-term the German navy is going to be shedding obsolete ships (the predreadnoughts and the VTE-powered Nassau and Helgoland classes, plus the older cruisers and torpedo boats) and will probably just mostly complete ships on the stocks rather than lay down new ones. Hell, the one Ersatz Yorck laid down stands a good chance of being scrapped. The L20s need more work to be done, mostly with the turrets, to be laid down, but they'll probably laid down after a delay to get the finances in order. The Ersatz Yorcks, probably gone. They're a compromise design to begin with and rapidly becoming obsolescent. The Mackensens are at least mostly done already.
In terms of light forces, the Germans already have a number of useful types of ship under construction and there are already designs available to keep building like the FK proposals for light cruisers; the larger designs would've been competitive with the Royal Navy's E-class. Similarly, they have a 1200-ton destroyer design under construction that is also of a similar capability to their foreign counterparts.
Where they go from there depends heavily on what the peace looks like and who Germany expects to fight, though BB wise a global naval limitations treaty is likely to intervene before any new designs can be completed.
The good news, financially, is that this time it's Germany who's going to be getting paid reparations, and the weakened currency means they're in a good export position if they can knock down some trade barriers in the peace treaty.
So short-term the German navy is going to be shedding obsolete ships (the predreadnoughts and the VTE-powered Nassau and Helgoland classes, plus the older cruisers and torpedo boats) and will probably just mostly complete ships on the stocks rather than lay down new ones. Hell, the one Ersatz Yorck laid down stands a good chance of being scrapped. The L20s need more work to be done, mostly with the turrets, to be laid down, but they'll probably laid down after a delay to get the finances in order. The Ersatz Yorcks, probably gone. They're a compromise design to begin with and rapidly becoming obsolescent. The Mackensens are at least mostly done already.
In terms of light forces, the Germans already have a number of useful types of ship under construction and there are already designs available to keep building like the FK proposals for light cruisers; the larger designs would've been competitive with the Royal Navy's E-class. Similarly, they have a 1200-ton destroyer design under construction that is also of a similar capability to their foreign counterparts.
Where they go from there depends heavily on what the peace looks like and who Germany expects to fight, though BB wise a global naval limitations treaty is likely to intervene before any new designs can be completed.
I think one of the first they would re-use from the predreadnought would be Deutschland. von Spee was to be honored with one of the E. Mackensens, IIRC.
If the war is somewhat historical, Blucher would be free for a new ship. Otherwise you might have to find characters like von Kruse or von der Decken from the Napoleonic era...
My thoughts,
From what I remember, Germany named its battleships after
- German states
- German monarchs
- German ruling houses
- Battles of the Franco-Prussian War
Battlecruisers tended to be named after generals, as far I know.
I think Battleships get named after the Kingdoms and other States, then monarchs or the monarchy or Royal Houses, but the later might not be so popular post-war, favoring the former as a tacit celebration of the people. Thus I tend to like getting a Deutschland-class and finding pan-German/cultural/historic or celebratory names for future ships. Battlecruisers are named for significant historic military leaders, a trend I see holding but now adding ships lost in action or otherwise of high merit, so Hindenburg, Blucher, Yorck, etc. The other cruisers are named for German cities but classes might now add meritorious ships to be class leader such as Emden unless she passes up to the BC naming. As we pass from the BC era to fast Battleships then I would think the new heavy cruisers get those names and light cruisers get large cities. As Destroyers mature they should get heroic German naval figures but might gain lesser cities for names. I like the idea of Germany resurrecting the Frigate, as a former ship of the line, to replace the Zestroyer as it grows to a GP fleet type. It fits the rank structure and anachronistic naming Germany sort of used. So I might be open to some new naming convention for them. And then bring back Corvettes. I think German Destroyers either fade from use or fill purely escort roles as more capable R-ships, so like RN Frigates that replaced sloops od USN sub chasers?
I wonder if the historic Battles of the Great War get ships named for them some 10 to 20 years in future? This war will not be a profoundly celebratory as past wars but nostalgia and honor might raise the names to a place of honor? The Kreigsmarine named Submarine Flotilla after WW1 submariners so maybe a convention to name Squadrons or Flotillas?
Would the Germans emulate the RN with names using attributes, weapons or things like rivers and so forth? Are Germans that linguistically notional?
If you ask me to be more prescient I would slash the navy post-war, the odds are against another war for at least 10 years, the real enemy is Japan in Asia but that is a magnitude and sea change to pursue, the other threats are all on land. Everything built is flawed post-Jutland and I would prefer a slew of clean sheet designs and wait for advances in technology. Frankly Germany cannot properly compete versus the RN due to geography, but submarines and air power can overcome much of that. Britain is best defeated by strategic bombing and USW with submarines designed to transit underwater, go far into the Atlantic, outpace escorts and have far better detection of disperse targets than is achievable without decades of work. The HSF is in truth a fleet-in-being, a necessary drain but palatable if it keeps London dealing, negotiating and giving in to Germany to maintain supremacy that is not really Germany's biggest problem.
I would foot drag the capital ship construction, even better agree to a treaty, instead spend on R&D, go air power, submarines, improved propulsion that uses coal or coal distillates in lieu of oil, and leverage American anger over violations of its neutrality to tangle the UK into the USN's ambitions, fears and loathing. The CV will soon rule the roost and submarines are next to dominate naval strategy. Germany can build a naval air force to non-plus the RN and offset it inferiority in ships. But that is a lot of crystal ball work.
From 1920 to 1940 she can, but likely won't, eschew a naval restoration to go after parity, and after 1940 we either have some new war or enough changes that the naval picture is more open to speculation. Thus I think we make do with the 4 Mackensen hulls and one Yorck, the planned L20 and the designed GK. We know that the BC days are numbered and so to BBs, a mid to late 1930s class is likely the last built. Thus I build them despite knowing they are a waste of steel and money. But Germany will have a global trade and need to police her shipping, if she gets colonies back she is doubled down on that score, if she stretches out into meddling in geopolitics to her favor she will need a blue water navy. Therefore I try to build a fleet about 60% that of the RN, Germany can weight it to capital ships and short her cruiser arm, she can defer submarines in numbers as she builds and builds experimental classes to cut into new technology, she should be chasing aviation and holding parity in naval technology, so close behind, equal or just ahead of the USN and RN year by year as they all compete to be the best.
I take it you mean the Wagner opera? It may be an orthodox option, but it could be interesting.
SMS Brunhilde? Hell yeah.
Grey Wolf
Donor
Ah, I had totally forgotten about them! Lovely names too.Well, I meant this lot
Siegfried-class coastal defense ship - Wikipedia
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