The German merchant raider problem in WW2. A Q-Ship solution?

In WW2 the German Navy sent out merchant raiders to sink or capture Allied merchant ships. Not only warships like the Graf Spee but converted merchant ships like the Atlantis. These armed merchant cruisers were a significant threat to Allied shipping particularly in the first two years of the war as the Royal Navy and Allied Navies were overextended. This was made more difficult as the German merchant raiders would disguise themselves as Allied or Neutral flagged ships as they hunted for Allied merchant ships travelling alone on the more distant sea lanes of the South Atlantic, Indian and South Pacific oceans.

Here are links to two articles describing the activities of these ships. I'd recommend the Hilfskreuzer site as it's more informative and detailed.



The RN struggled to find and sink these ships. Though they eventually did it took the Allies over 2 years to eliminate their threat. During those 2 years the Germans sank or captured over 100 ships using about 7 effective armed merchant raiders. The deployment of these ships didn't come as a surprise to the British. It was a repeat of operations the German navy had carried out in WW1. And the British Admiralty knew of the conversions of a number of fast merchant ships to armed merchant cruisers that the Germans were doing in the late 1930s. The RN knew what was coming. Still, it took the RN and their Allies more then 2 years to remove that threat.

What more could the RN had done considering all their other world wide commitments? Were there any other method of combating the German raiders that would not too greatly tax the already over extended RN? I think there might possibly have been when considering the tactics employed by the Hilfskreuzers.

The captains of the raiders wanted to subdue the Allied merchants. They were seeking to capture ships that could be sent home crewed by German prize crews and/or inspect captured ships for valuable cargoes, fuel oil and food for their own use and intelligence for example code books and logs. They didn't seek to simply attack and sink their prey. The tactics employed required the Hilfskreuzer to close with their victim so as to send a boarding party after the Allied ship had stopped trying to fight back or flee. This would often mean the Allied ship would be shot up and damaged to varying degrees. But if a ship stopped without resisting they would likely not be shelled.

The Hilfskreuzer would need to approach the stopped ship close enough to lower boats to send a boading party. As close as a few hundred yards. This would've put the stopped Hilfskreuzer within can't miss torpedo range.

What if the British had fitted a small number of ordinary mundane tramp steamers with a set of torpedo tubes? Fitted in the bottom of the forward cargo hold then the tube doors would be below the water line and not visible. Maybe have 3 tubes located on each side of the ship. Because who could know which side the raider would approach from? A new kind of Q-Ship sent out to deal with the only enemy ships that would still be following something like the old "cruiser rules".

This torpedo Q-Ship would not be armed with any other weapons. The WW2 German Hilfskreuzers were so heavily armed it it would be futile to get into a gunfight with them. They must look like a helpless old steamer just like all the others the Germans have encountered previously in the South Atlantic and Indian oceans. And when fired on and signaled at they must promptly stop without offering any resistance. This would hopefully prevent any further firing from the Hilfskreuzer guns. And so just like before the German ship approaches the "helpless" stopped Allied ship and halts a few hundred yards off the beam so as to send over the boarding party. At which point the British fire a salvo of torpedoes at the stopped Hilfskreuzer.

The raiders weren't armoured. They were just converted merchant ships. Two or three torpedo hits would finish it. It might finish it off so quickly that they might not be able to commence firing at the British Q-Ship. Either way it's not likely the information of how the German raider was sunk would make it back the the German Navy command which means the German captains may not learn they need to change their tactics. The British would need only have to do this two or three times along with the OTL methods used in hunting down the raiders and the Hilfskreuzer threat would be eliminated in about half the time it took in OTL. Especially if the Q-Ships sank the more effective German raiders like Atlantis or Pinguin.

Could this have worked?
 
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What did the RN have in storage for torpedo tubes? Some old 18 or 21 inchers from WW1 would do the job, heck 1890's torpedoes would work, and I'd think 1 tube on each beam or even just one on the bow would do, but what did the RN have laying around?
 
What did the RN have in storage for torpedo tubes? Some old 18 or 21 inchers from WW1 would do the job, heck 1890's torpedoes would work, and I'd think 1 tube on each beam or even just one on the bow would do, but what did the RN have laying around?

I don't know what exactly the RN could've spared. But I think you would want a heavy torpedo salvo. If you missed shooting with only one torpedo or it was a dud you would not likely get a second chance. Atlantis for example carried 6 6"inch guns and 37 and 20 MM AA guns. This was typical armament for the Hilfskreuzers. I don't think an unarmoured tramp steamer would last 5 minutes against a barrage like that from 300 yards away. And also you would want the Q-Ships to be able to deliver a quick knock out blow to preserve the tactical surprise for further use.
 
I don't know what exactly the RN could've spared. But I think you would want a heavy torpedo salvo. If you missed shooting with only one torpedo or it was a dud you would not likely get a second chance. Atlantis for example carried 6 6"inch guns and 37 and 20 MM AA guns. This was typical armament for the Hilfskreuzers. I don't think an unarmoured tramp steamer would last 5 minutes against a barrage like that from 300 yards away. And also you would want the Q-Ships to be able to deliver a quick knock out blow to preserve the tactical surprise for further use.
But 6 tubes is logistically harder to do to many ships vs 1-2, plus all it takes is 1 torpedo to mission kill a raider
 
"And when fired on and signaled at they must promptly stop without offering any resistance."
Bernhard Rogge or any other raider captain and their crew would get suspicious. Every Allied ship the raiders encountered tried to either flee or fight back if they had any guns. Having a merchant suddenly act all meek and mild is incredibly suspicious.
And the raider would still fire on the merchant. Gotta take out the radio room or the antennas to they don't send out a help signal.
 
But 6 tubes is logistically harder to do to many ships vs 1-2, plus all it takes is 1 torpedo to mission kill a raider

How about 2 tubes per side? British torpedoes are better then the American ones at the time but they weren't perfect. You will likely only get one chance.
 
How about 2 tubes per side? British torpedoes are better then the American ones at the time but they weren't perfect. You will likely only get one chance.
At close ranges(1000 yards) you should be able to hit a slow moving and turning merchant with a torpedo, these ships are expendable arming them more makes them expensively expendable
 
"And when fired on and signaled at they must promptly stop without offering any resistance."
Bernhard Rogge or any other raider captain and their crew would get suspicious. Every Allied ship the raiders encountered tried to either flee or fight back if they had any guns. Having a merchant suddenly act all meek and mild is incredibly suspicious.
And the raider would still fire on the merchant. Gotta take out the radio room or the antennas to they don't send out a help signal.

According to the accounts I've been reading at the Hilfskreuzer website not everything happened smoothly or simply. But if a merchant ship stopped running after having warning shots fired at it and didn't transmit any radio signals then they were usually not fired at again. They had surrendered. Plus my premised Q-Ships will have no guns. Not all tramps were defensively armed. And they won't have to be flying the British flag. Could be flagged a Neutral.
 
At close ranges(1000 yards) you should be able to hit a slow moving and turning merchant with a torpedo, these ships are expendable arming them more makes them expensively expendable

I would hope the ranges would be closer then that. Less then 500 yards maybe. The thing is if you're going to do this, outfit torpedo armed Q-Ships, it shouldn't be done halfway. But as you mentioned in your first comment it may all depend on what the British can spare for this purpose. I don't know how many torpedoes, even older ones would be allotted. At least I don't think they would need the sophisticated aiming mechanisms submarines used.
 
It depends on what they're being used for. This is a particular kind of Q-Ship design being used for one particular purpose.
A stealthy underwater torpedo tube is quite hard to aim. Torpedos are also quite expensive weapons and require maintenance, old ones tend to be not reliable. Underwater tubes also take up volume and present a flooding vulnerability to the ship. The only case I can think of this working was against HMAS Sydney and Kormoran's 45degree aft fixed torpedoes were a last minute 'the gig is up' ditch effort to take out a warship, not something to be relied on all the time.
 
First issue is if you've got the intel to actually localize the Raider then a Cruiser is a better solution; if you don't then you've gotta get luck for the Q-Ship to blunder into the Raider... Not impossible but relatively low odds, rendering the idea inefficient.

Second problem is you get a Q-Ship or two into position and blat a Raider or two. Sooner or later the Germans will cotton onto what happened (either radio signal from Raider if you don't manage a catastrophic first hit kill; or via letters from PoWs if there's survivors), and now rather than stopping, boarding and taking or scuttling ships the German Raiders instead switch to sinking ships on sight...
 
This creates as many problems as it fixes.
In WW1 in the early days a lot of UBoats tried to surface inspect and remove crews if it was safe to do so. But then GB told its merchan ships to try and ram the subs and then GB built Q-ships that would attack a surfaced U-boat. So the U-boats started sinking all merchants on site usu from below. And by the time WW2 rolls around it is standard from the start to just torpedo a merchant ship.

Installing torpedo tubes and attacking raiders after you “surrender” will just get the raiders to stand off and blow you to bits. So all you are going to do is make it where no merchant can surrender thus you kill more merchant sailors. On the plus side the Germans can’t get their hands on the cargo but you can accomplish that a lot easier with scuttleping charges or hatches.
And frankly I think this will cost a lot more to GB then it will ever stop Germany from getting as with only 100 ships or so and most sunk Germany is not getting much.
Also with only 100 ships or so in 2 years it is probably not worth the cost to install torpedo tubes. In order to truly shorten the raider threat you need to install a TON of ships with the tubs and you need it from day one when you have more important things to worry about then a handful of merchant ships a month. I mean on average what are we talking about 3 or 4 a month?
So the cost of the installation is going to be more then you are going to save with it. As only a few ships will not be effective as odds are the raiders don’t encounter them and enough to be effective is to expensive.
Then you have the hidden costs that put this out of reach.
1) you take each ship out of service for a week or two to install the system.so you lose 2 weeks per ship in fit out. If you do 200 ships that is 400 weeks or about 8 ship years. Basically you just sank two of your own ships as far as lost shipping goes.
2) lost storage. A merchant ship is only useful to carry stuff. If you cut back capacity to carry it is less usefull. If we lose 10% of the cargo capacity (and on old merchant ships that tended to travel alone and thus be victims of raiders you are talking about in general older smaller ships) that seams to be a low number I would not be surprised if you lose 15% or more and if the navy is out of control with the torpedo room. Topedo storage torpedo maint and space for the crew and the control runs you could lose a lot more. But let’s call it 10%. 10% of 200 ships 20ships .

So between the lost time and the lost cargo capacity you lose about 25 ships worth of cargo for the duration of the war. That is 1/8 of so of what you are trying to protect. In this case you have to stop the raiders completly by about the 75% mark of what they did or you LOSE cargo capacit overall. So I highly doubt you will break eaten much come out ahead.
The only way this can be justified is if the raiders are doing enough damage that you independent merchantman won’t sail in places you need him and you need to be seen to be doing something so they will keep sailing. But this is not the cause with raiders.
So this is going to cost more then it is worth. And don’t forget the cost of the installation. The cost of crew and or training. The cost of designing this and the cost of either new torpedos or of getting old torpedos back in working condition. So you probably lose at least the equivalent of a couple more ships.
Thus if I am Germany I say go for it. You have effectively sunk about 1/4 to 1/3 of the ships my raiders got and you probably only saved a dozen ships total if you are luck as the raiders tended to do better early on and got few ships as the months rolled on so to be most effective you need a bunch of ships day one but you won’t have them. It will take at least 6 months to figure out the problem and implement the solution. And then you need another 6-12 months at least to refit the ships. So we are looking at about a year in before you have any real chance to do much. At that point I have sunk at least 50 ships and probably closer to 60. But call it 50 now I need to sink another 30 before you sink all my raiders. Any I sink over 25 is a net plus for Germany. Personally I think you will be lucky to save more then 10 but let’s give you twice that. Then this is still a net loss. So I just don’t see how you can do more then break even on this. And if you say use fewer ships I will say fine but then odds are your QT-Ships never see any of my raiders and the whole thing is a bust.

Their is good reason the Liberty ships were built unarmored and cheep. We could have built them to take a torpedo hit or two but the cost would have ment so many fewer ships that we would have lost more cargo capacity then we lost to the U-boats. It would have saved lives and thus today we would do it. But in WW2 they understood that winning the war was going to cost lives.

So while it sounds interesting it is going to cause more problems by forcing the raiders to stand off and blow a ship out if the water at a relatively safe distance. And it will cost as much if not more then you save as far as cargo goes. So it is not very practical
 
@DougM Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed analysis of my premise. Clearly from the cost/benefit point the QT-Ship is a faulty concept. I suspected it was a questionable idea, especially due to the low chances of a encounter with only perhaps 10 QT-Ships at most. It's helpful to see another persons detailed assessment of the other important factors to better evaluate the idea.
 
First issue is if you've got the intel to actually localize the Raider then a Cruiser is a better solution; if you don't then you've gotta get luck for the Q-Ship to blunder into the Raider... Not impossible but relatively low odds, rendering the idea inefficient.
This, its one thing to put a few Q ships off shore in the main trade routes near UK for WWI Subs, quite another to do it for raiders that are spread out to the far edges of the world as they cant already operate anywhere the RN does. You need far to many Q ships or they just do nothing as most ships did not get attacked.
 
Honestly, this idea has merit but it's a one off, like the U-flak concept.
It will work a couple times at most before the German raiders catch on.

It would just be better to fit guns on merchants.
SS Stephen Hopkins managed to cripple a raider (Stier) so badly it had to be scuttled.
 
One of the issues and reasons why it took so long to deal with the German Merchant raiders was they were only operating a few of them at any given time over those years
 
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