The family of Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon

[VVD0D95]

So, I've seen a fair few threads on what consequences might there be in the wider sense had Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon had surviving male issue, but I've never seen anything exploring what the domestic set up would be. Mainly what would relations between Henry VIII, his wife and their family be like?

If say this is the line of issue for Henry and Catherine:


Elizabeth of England (b.1510)

Henry IX of England (b.1511)

Edward, Duke of York (b.1514)

Mary of England (b.1516)

Joanna of England (b.1518)

With two sons, Henry's got to feel more secure on the throne and as if the dynasty's a bit more secure. And no doubt Catherine's position is relatively secure. One imagines Henry might take a few mistresses during his reign, but the tyranny we saw otl might well be abated here. But, would he have a decent relationship with his sons? He was quite egotistical anyway, so might he want his sons to be like his ideal of the perfect King, or would he accept them as they came?

And what of the daughters, with them being legitimate etc. would he value them more highly than he valued his daughters otl?

@isabella @Kynan @The Professor @Kellan Sullivan @Tyler96 @FalconHonour @Mikestone8 @Brita

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

would he value them more highly than he valued his daughters otl?

This being the same man whose treatment of his eldest daughter was regarded, even by the standards of the day, as harsh?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

He was quite egotistical anyway, so might he want his sons to be like his ideal of the perfect Kin

This, most likely. Will be even worse if sonny boy is a "better" Renaissance prince than Hal.

 

[Rose’s War]

I think he'd be disappointed if his sons were anything but the same as him to be honest - he is quite vain like that so would probably use himself as a perfect example of a monarch.

With Catherine as Queen you'd definitely be looking towards Iberian (specifically Spanish) matches, and I suppose it depends what his daughters are like - obviously Elizabeth on this discussion will not be like OTL Elizabeth, but with sons I guess he would have more regard for his daughters as they're not 'hindering' his succession

 

[VVD0D95]

This, most likely. Will be even worse if sonny boy is a "better" Renaissance prince than Hal.

AHh I see. Why am I now picturing Henry senior and Henry junior arguing about art and poets over a flagon of wine?

I think he'd be disappointed if his sons were anything but the same as him to be honest - he is quite vain like that so would probably use himself as a perfect example of a monarch.

With Catherine as Queen you'd definitely be looking towards Iberian (specifically Spanish) matches, and I suppose it depends what his daughters are like - obviously Elizabeth on this discussion will not be like OTL Elizabeth, but with sons I guess he would have more regard for his daughters as they're not 'hindering' his succession

This is very true. Hmm, I don't think there's any Spanish brides available for Henry, though maybe at a push Charles could wed Mary Tudor here? Though I think if the daughter born in 1509 survived, that might be more likely.

 

[Rose’s War]

You might end up with Henry IX marrying Maria of Portugal, Duchess of Viseu perhaps?

 

[VVD0D95]

Hav edited the tree to have the daughter born in 1510 survive.

 

[VVD0D95]

You might end up with Henry IX marrying Maria of Portugal, Duchess of Viseu perhaps?

Hmm that could be quite the interesting marriage though quite the age gap

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

You might end up with Henry IX marrying Maria of Portugal, Duchess of Viseu perhaps?

Kristina or Dorothea of Denmark are more likely. Portugal's ALREADY an ally, Denmark's only a recent friend IIRC.

 

[Brita]

He'd be a much better father for his daughters with two healthy sons.
Also I could imagine him being a little like Henry II with his sons, wanting to control things, especially if they don't fit with his idea of the perfect son.

 

[isabella]

I think he'd be disappointed if his sons were anything but the same as him to be honest - he is quite vain like that so would probably use himself as a perfect example of a monarch.

With Catherine as Queen you'd definitely be looking towards Iberian (specifically Spanish) matches, and I suppose it depends what his daughters are like - obviously Elizabeth on this discussion will not be like OTL Elizabeth, but with sons I guess he would have more regard for his daughters as they're not 'hindering' his succession

A Spanish match for any of the kids is impossible, an Austrian one pretty unlikely so the best who Catalina can get are Dorothea of Denmark, Maria of Portugal or Kristine of Denmark for her son. If Henry want crowns for his daughters they can marry only the Dauphin of France or James V of Scotland or they will likely marry German (or maybe Italian) rulers...

Hav edited the tree to have the daughter born in 1510 survive.

Karl V will still most likely marry Isabella of Portugal and not Elizabeth of England

 

[Rose’s War]

I was just pointing out that it is likely that Catherine would push for Iberian matches - after all Mary was engaged to Charles V who was A LOT older than her, breaking an engagement to a more suitably aged Dauphin of France

 

[kasumigenx]

So, I've seen a fair few threads on what consequences might there be in the wider sense had Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon had surviving male issue, but I've never seen anything exploring what the domestic set up would be. Mainly what would relations between Henry VIII, his wife and their family be like?

If say this is the line of issue for Henry and Catherine:


Elizabeth of England (b.1510)

Henry IX of England (b.1511)

Edward, Duke of York (b.1514)

Mary of England (b.1516)

Joanna of England (b.1518)

With two sons, Henry's got to feel more secure on the throne and as if the dynasty's a bit more secure. And no doubt Catherine's position is relatively secure. One imagines Henry might take a few mistresses during his reign, but the tyranny we saw otl might well be abated here. But, would he have a decent relationship with his sons? He was quite egotistical anyway, so might he want his sons to be like his ideal of the perfect King, or would he accept them as they came?

And what of the daughters, with them being legitimate etc. would he value them more highly than he valued his daughters otl?

@isabella @Kynan @The Professor @Kellan Sullivan @Tyler96 @FalconHonour @Mikestone8 @Brita

Elizabeth could be the second wife of Francis I.

 

[VVD0D95]

Kristina or Dorothea of Denmark are more likely. Portugal's ALREADY an ally, Denmark's only a recent friend IIRC.

A Spanish match for any of the kids is impossible, an Austrian one pretty unlikely so the best who Catalina can get are Dorothea of Denmark, Maria of Portugal or Kristine of Denmark for her son. If Henry want crowns for his daughters they can marry only the Dauphin of France or James V of Scotland or they will likely marry German (or maybe Italian) rulers...


Karl V will still most likely marry Isabella of Portugal and not Elizabeth of England

I was just pointing out that it is likely that Catherine would push for Iberian matches - after all Mary was engaged to Charles V who was A LOT older than her, breaking an engagement to a more suitably aged Dauphin of France

Think Dorothea of Denmark for Henry IX makes sense, James V marrying Elizabeth of England would make sense and Mary to the Dauphin also makes sense I think.

 

[VVD0D95]

So, I think marriages we've got so far:
Henry IX to Dorothea of Denmark

James V to Elizabeth of England

and Mary to the Dauphin-though this could change should said Dauphin still die young.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

and Mary to the Dauphin-though this could change should said Dauphin still die young.

Might well. If he WAS poisoned as suspected. There's a good chance Caterina de Medici might be born male or her parents don't die which means she's less valuable for the duc d'Orléans (which would remove the potential poisoner - not saying she did or that it WAS poison, just what people thought at the time)

 

[VVD0D95]

Might well. If he WAS poisoned as suspected. There's a good chance Caterina de Medici might be born male or her parents don't die which means she's less valuable for the duc d'Orléans (which would remove the potential poisoner - not saying she did or that it WAS poison, just what people thought at the time)

Hmm this is true, though having a Francis ii who isn’t completely fucked from the get fo would be nice

 

[dragonstoned]

Elizabeth will marry either Charles V or James V of Scotland, but I don't see Henry giving away his eldest daughter to be Francis' second wife as it would make the match between Mary and the Dauphin impossible or less likely to happen. Only one princess will be wed into France, he doesn't have many enough daughters to be handing over to the French like that.

Henry's got pretty good options: Catherine of Austria (b. 1507), surviving Maria of Portugal (b. 1511), Renée of France (b. 1510), surviving Louise (b. 1515) or Charlotte of France (b. 1516). The Danish princesses are also worthy of consideration even though they're 9/10 years younger than him, but Christian II getting deposed might get on the way of such match.

Edward, poor baby, as a second son, he can only hope to get a minor foreign princess or a wealthy english heiress as wife. That is if he's not made a prince of the Church and goes on to become Archbishop of Canterbury or so.

Joanna can marry Hans of Denmark (b. 1518), again if his father can hold on to his throne, she's one of the few royal princesses of acceptable age he can marry. And, (unsurprisingly), she's family! His second cousin, if I'm not mistaken, his Habsburg relatives would most definetely ship it. Though if he's still heir to the Danish realm.

If not, she can marry local or not marry at all.

 

[VVD0D95]

Elizabeth will marry either Charles V or James V of Scotland, but I don't see Henry giving away his eldest daughter to be Francis' second wife as it would make the match between Mary and the Dauphin impossible or less likely to happen. Only one princess will be wed into France, he doesn't have many enough daughters to be handing over to the French like that.

Henry's got pretty good options: Catherine of Austria (b. 1507), surviving Maria of Portugal (b. 1511), Renée of France (b. 1510), surviving Louise (b. 1515) or Charlotte of France (b. 1516). The Danish princesses are also worthy of consideration even though they're 9/10 years younger than him, but Christian II getting deposed might get on the way of such match.

Edward, poor baby, as a second son, he can only hope to get a minor foreign princess or a wealthy english heiress as wife. That is if he's not made a prince of the Church and goes on to become Archbishop of Canterbury or so.

Joanna can marry Hans of Denmark (b. 1518), again if his father can hold on to his throne, she's one of the few royal princesses of acceptable age he can marry. And, (unsurprisingly), she's family! His second cousin, if I'm not mistaken, his Habsburg relatives would most definetely ship it. Though if he's still heir to the Danish realm.

If not, she can marry local or not marry at all.

Agreed, henrh to Catherine or a surviving Maria would be good as well. Don’t think Edward would go into the church the dynasty is still too new for that

 

[kasumigenx]

Elizabeth will marry Charles V, only if Ferdinand II chooses his namesake Ferdinand as successor and possibly Elizabeth will marry her half-uncle, a son of Germaine and Ferdinand.