The Eagle of the Bosporus
- Thread starter Elfwine
- Start date
Faeelin
Banned
Mmm. Was this true? I thought by OTL's 1170s the Roman armies were mostly mercenary forces?
Huehuecoyotl
Monthly Donor
Another Byzantine timeline - and a promising one! Looking forward to the return of Ikonion to Roman rule. 
I meant yes, do cover it now rather than later. Oh, could you keep Barbarossa from such an ignominous death, and perhaps make the campaign in the Holy Land a bit more successful because of that? I've got a soft spot in my heart for old Red-Beard, and I'd like to see him do well.
I'll just say this - read the original thread and the discussion on Barbarossa. My intentions haven't changed since then.
Basileus Giorgios said:
I'm going with the assumption that its Turkified enough to mean that the Byzantines need to deal with that (in the same sense how the Balkans is mostly Slavic and even "Greece" is partially Hellenized Slavs rather than native-born Greeks).
It's going to take some work and time before there's much of a Rhomanian presence outside the areas already in Roman control (Yes I know I don't have a map up yet.)
Ryudrago said:Well, Iconium was surely irrilevant for the Barbarossa, but not for Alexius and the Byzantines...
Exactly. Though the reason they (the Germans) are going after it is the same as OTL. The Turks were even less good at following through on promises to help the Germans through their territory than the Byzantines.
Faeelin said:
About a quarter or so mercenaries, I think.
But mercenaries are still closer to being professional soldiers in this regard. Feudal troops may fight as well, but I don't have much confidence in them at the areas that make the difference between warriors and soldiers.
Edited that line to take this into consideration - Basil II would be appalled at how the army has sunk to being "merely" competent. Which isn't exactly shameful by any other standards, but isn't unambiguously superior to all rivals either.
ByzantineCaesar said:
Spoiler: He won't.
If he could avoid it OTL, he's hardly going to do worse TTL.Still wanting to see what you think I should do more specifically with Bela. Hungary is going to get some attention after the Crusade finishes, as Alexius's domestic life is pretty dull as said before.
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Despite the harsh weather of the past two months and the repeated Turkish attacks, the core of the two armies, Roman and German, remained intact. Surprisingly, they had managed to keep the all-but-inevitable bickering down to a low rumble - something that most attributed to the Emperor's overriding concern for the crusade, and refusal to accept any quarrels that would interfere with the much-appreciated assistance Alexius was providing. The Greek troops he could do without, but the ready preparation of supplies was another matter, especially when foraging would hardly have been profitable anyway.
But if Frederick had managed to restrain his followers when it came to their fellow Christians, no man could have restrained the desire of the crusaders to strike against the Turks. When an offer came from the Sultan to call off the attacks in exchange for gold and an alliance against the Romans, the Emperor's temper exploded. In the words of later chroniclers, the Emperor told the Turkish envoys that "With the help of our Lord Jesus Christ, whose knights we are, we shall open the road with iron, not gold.”[1]
The German army would be divided into two groups, one under the Emperor himself and the other under his son (also named Frederick), the Duke of Swabia. Vatazes's Roman troops would be with the former, partially due to the Emperor's desire that his son gain the glory of taking the city, partially to keep the not-completely-trusted Roman forces somewhere he could watch them.
As it turns out, the division of the German army could easily have gone disasterously wrong. While the Duke of Swabia was battling to enter the city, the main army of the Turks faced off against the Emperor's own forces and the Romans. Only the greatest efforts of the Emperor and the steadiness of the Roman troops saw the Turks first repulsed, and then finally routed, leaving Iconium to its fate - a fate nearly as bad as the city had suffered in wars over two centuries earlier between the Romans and Saracens.
But it really didn't matter. Not to the Romans, not to the Germans. The Turks, on the other hand, were terrified. Proposals begging for peace on any terms were sent almost immediately. Frederick agreed to leave with no further destruction in exchange for twenty distinguished hostages and an guarantee that that supplies would be provided and the attacks stopped. Additionally, Iconium - or what had survived the sack of the cities - would, along with the surrounding countryside - be turned over to the Romans. The exact details would have to be worked out with Alexius, however. Five days after the city was taken, the Germans were once more on the move, though with most of the Romans remaining behind to hold the city.
A week after leaving the city, they would reenter Christian territory - the lands of Cilician Armenia, a semi-independent principality within the Byzantine Empire. After all the struggles across Anatolia and all the hardships of the journey, what lay ahead would be a devastating blow for the crusaders. [2]
1: OTL Frederick apparently said essentially the same thing. I can only assume that the Turks had no idea who they were messing with, because that anyone would address Barbarossa like this and expect to get away with it who does know him seems suicidally stupid.
2: If you're afraid of spoilers, don't read the following:
The original thread talks about Barbarossa's intended fate. No, he doesn't die here...but his son does.[FONT="]
[/FONT]
But if Frederick had managed to restrain his followers when it came to their fellow Christians, no man could have restrained the desire of the crusaders to strike against the Turks. When an offer came from the Sultan to call off the attacks in exchange for gold and an alliance against the Romans, the Emperor's temper exploded. In the words of later chroniclers, the Emperor told the Turkish envoys that "With the help of our Lord Jesus Christ, whose knights we are, we shall open the road with iron, not gold.”[1]
The German army would be divided into two groups, one under the Emperor himself and the other under his son (also named Frederick), the Duke of Swabia. Vatazes's Roman troops would be with the former, partially due to the Emperor's desire that his son gain the glory of taking the city, partially to keep the not-completely-trusted Roman forces somewhere he could watch them.
As it turns out, the division of the German army could easily have gone disasterously wrong. While the Duke of Swabia was battling to enter the city, the main army of the Turks faced off against the Emperor's own forces and the Romans. Only the greatest efforts of the Emperor and the steadiness of the Roman troops saw the Turks first repulsed, and then finally routed, leaving Iconium to its fate - a fate nearly as bad as the city had suffered in wars over two centuries earlier between the Romans and Saracens.
But it really didn't matter. Not to the Romans, not to the Germans. The Turks, on the other hand, were terrified. Proposals begging for peace on any terms were sent almost immediately. Frederick agreed to leave with no further destruction in exchange for twenty distinguished hostages and an guarantee that that supplies would be provided and the attacks stopped. Additionally, Iconium - or what had survived the sack of the cities - would, along with the surrounding countryside - be turned over to the Romans. The exact details would have to be worked out with Alexius, however. Five days after the city was taken, the Germans were once more on the move, though with most of the Romans remaining behind to hold the city.
A week after leaving the city, they would reenter Christian territory - the lands of Cilician Armenia, a semi-independent principality within the Byzantine Empire. After all the struggles across Anatolia and all the hardships of the journey, what lay ahead would be a devastating blow for the crusaders. [2]
1: OTL Frederick apparently said essentially the same thing. I can only assume that the Turks had no idea who they were messing with, because that anyone would address Barbarossa like this and expect to get away with it who does know him seems suicidally stupid.
2: If you're afraid of spoilers, don't read the following:
The original thread talks about Barbarossa's intended fate. No, he doesn't die here...but his son does.[FONT="]
[/FONT]
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Elfwine
Interesting. The empire has been given a good boost with their most immediate threat significantly reduced. Also given it has a lot more experience of bordering Muslim states possibly at least some of the new Turkish subjects could be used as mercenaries to help boost the power of the monarchy against the nobles?
However you're hinting that something really derails Frederick's crusade. Possibly he still dies, just a bit later, or some plague hits the army or something but it sounds like some grim is going to happen to it.
Steve
Interesting. The empire has been given a good boost with their most immediate threat significantly reduced. Also given it has a lot more experience of bordering Muslim states possibly at least some of the new Turkish subjects could be used as mercenaries to help boost the power of the monarchy against the nobles?
However you're hinting that something really derails Frederick's crusade. Possibly he still dies, just a bit later, or some plague hits the army or something but it sounds like some grim is going to happen to it.
Steve
Definitely possible. Exactly how things shake out is going to take a while to sort out - what Frederick is saying was accepted in a "Yes, yes, whatever you say." to get him out of their lands, and a few thousand Romans - even with the Seljuk army dealt a severe blow - aren't really enough if the Seljuks decide that promises made under duress aren't necessary to keep. Still, it is an opening that Alexius can and will use to push the Empire's borders deeper into Anatolia, not even counting taking advantage of any emirs who can be convinced that joining Rome is preferable to any of the claimants (as the Sultan's sons are already quarreling over the succession).
As for Frederick's crusade: It could be worse. But it isn't good.
Tell me, does Antioch remain a Rhomanian vassal ITTL? If I'm not mistaken, OTL Alexius II's mother was the sister of the Prince of Antioch, which puts that prince in likely quite a strong position in the Empire. I wonder if he's been appointed as even something like a Caesar.
Interested what can happen to Iconium. The Turks, I'd imagine, have significant troops remaining further east in Anatolia, so the Rhomanians are going to have to move pretty quickly if they don't want to simply be thrown out of Iconium and have the frontier restored to what it was before. How large is the army left in Iconium?
Interested what can happen to Iconium. The Turks, I'd imagine, have significant troops remaining further east in Anatolia, so the Rhomanians are going to have to move pretty quickly if they don't want to simply be thrown out of Iconium and have the frontier restored to what it was before. How large is the army left in Iconium?
Yes, though actually expecting anything of that would take Alexius reminding him (the prince of Antioch) of the fact.
She was, yes. And Alexius has been leery about granting anyone authority of that sort, though I'm sure he's wound up with some distinguished title as part of ensuring he stays loyal.
Not very - I'm going with the idea that Frederick took about thirty thousand men with him, and so "a fraction" of that is probably closer to five than ten thousand.
So there can't be over three thousand Romans garrisoning Iconium and hoping Alexius finds out before the Seljuks renege.
As for remaining Seljuk troops - that I'm not sure about. As in, any figures I come up with are going to be at least partially guesswork. But while the Seljuk army Frederick faced was routed it wasn't destroyed.
From the best I can tell at this time*, the Seljuks ten years earlier had an army large enough to send 20-24,000 men after Myriokephalon (which hasn't been fought in this timeline, so there have been none of the casualties either side suffered there) into Rhomanian territory.
So assuming a force somewhat larger than that fought at Iconium, I'd say - subject to any readers offering better figures or something else to go on (please? Someone?) - it wouldn't be impossible for the Rhomanians to have to fight up to thirty thousand or so Turks after reinforcements. If, that is, the Turks actually fight together and not amongst themselves - but even half of that is too many for the three thousand men under Vatazes.
* A wikipedia article with sources (which I haven't read).
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Question for the readers again (something that will come up every so often because while I have an idea of what I want to do, I don't know how best to present it):
At this point I can turn to one of three places:
1) Back to Alexius, whose response to the fall of Iconium is predictable in a general sort of way. Covering it will take at least another post, however, which delays covering the other two.
2) So what happened that was such a blow to the Germans? Finish up their march into the Levant proper - say up until they get to Antioch and reveal what the hinted at (a little more strongly than I'd do if I could go back and edit it) blow is.
3) The Kingdom of Jerusalem is relevant about now, particularly if I follow up on having Balian play more of a role - and of course whether or not any butterflies have impacted Conrad of Montefort is important (though that's more a decision I have to make than anything else - if they have, Tyre is fallen, if they haven't, the Levant has gone essentially as OTL).
I don't know enough about Seljuk forces to feel comfortable addressing #1 at the moment. Especially with the civil war going on, which the capture of Iconium makes worse.
Someone who has some figures that they'd suggest (after allowing for said civil war) would be appreciated, whether that gets put off or not.
And of course the issue of Richard and Philip will be coming up soon, but from my best calculations, its still not June so they haven't even left. So strictly chronologically I can wait.
Any other comments and feedback welcome, particularly on the writing style - I'm new at this and still tying to write it in a way that satisfies me.
Originally the battle was going to be covered with Frederick thinking over events the night afterwards, but I'm less confident in writing first-person narrative than the current sorta-third person narrative style.
At this point I can turn to one of three places:
1) Back to Alexius, whose response to the fall of Iconium is predictable in a general sort of way. Covering it will take at least another post, however, which delays covering the other two.
2) So what happened that was such a blow to the Germans? Finish up their march into the Levant proper - say up until they get to Antioch and reveal what the hinted at (a little more strongly than I'd do if I could go back and edit it) blow is.
3) The Kingdom of Jerusalem is relevant about now, particularly if I follow up on having Balian play more of a role - and of course whether or not any butterflies have impacted Conrad of Montefort is important (though that's more a decision I have to make than anything else - if they have, Tyre is fallen, if they haven't, the Levant has gone essentially as OTL).
I don't know enough about Seljuk forces to feel comfortable addressing #1 at the moment. Especially with the civil war going on, which the capture of Iconium makes worse.
Someone who has some figures that they'd suggest (after allowing for said civil war) would be appreciated, whether that gets put off or not.
And of course the issue of Richard and Philip will be coming up soon, but from my best calculations, its still not June so they haven't even left. So strictly chronologically I can wait.
Any other comments and feedback welcome, particularly on the writing style - I'm new at this and still tying to write it in a way that satisfies me.
Originally the battle was going to be covered with Frederick thinking over events the night afterwards, but I'm less confident in writing first-person narrative than the current sorta-third person narrative style.
The relief of the Germans at having entered Christian territory again was short lived, despite the warm support of the de facto autonomous prince, Leo II. The rugged Taurus mountains were a formidable to the progress of the army, and the alternative route suggested by the local guides was preferable only by contrast.
At the Saleph River, disaster struck.
Frederick VI, Duke of Swabia and second living son of the Holy Roman Emperor, was thrown from his horse and drowned.
At first, rumors spread word that the Emperor himself had drowned. Strong men, who had grown up in a world where the sixty-eight year old emperor had been emperor longer than they had been alive, wept and bewailed his supposed demise as if the Christ himself had deserted them. How could the army, bereft of the man who had held the Holy Roman Empire together by the strength of his will alone, possibly continue? [1] They were doomed to die in a strange land, far from home. Even the promise of salvation for their sins by virtue of taking the cross was forgotten in their despair.
But ultimately, the truth spread. It had not been the Emperor. He had survived, though the news of his son's death had hit him hard. And as news spread that the earlier rumors had been false, those who remained regained lost hope. Nothing could stop them now. Surely that the Emperor had been thought loss was not the punishment of God, but a test of their faith. A test of their worth. And they were determined to pass that test. Jerusalem would be theirs and the Saracens driven like dust before the wind.
For God. For Jesus Christ. For the Emperor.
Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra. [2]
1: A tip of the hat to those who designed the Barbarossa campaign for Age of Empires II.
2: Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. In Latin of course.
I'm probably going to add something on what Alexius is doing in response to the news on Iconium, as this is a short update, but I figured I'd post this now.
At the Saleph River, disaster struck.
Frederick VI, Duke of Swabia and second living son of the Holy Roman Emperor, was thrown from his horse and drowned.
At first, rumors spread word that the Emperor himself had drowned. Strong men, who had grown up in a world where the sixty-eight year old emperor had been emperor longer than they had been alive, wept and bewailed his supposed demise as if the Christ himself had deserted them. How could the army, bereft of the man who had held the Holy Roman Empire together by the strength of his will alone, possibly continue? [1] They were doomed to die in a strange land, far from home. Even the promise of salvation for their sins by virtue of taking the cross was forgotten in their despair.
But ultimately, the truth spread. It had not been the Emperor. He had survived, though the news of his son's death had hit him hard. And as news spread that the earlier rumors had been false, those who remained regained lost hope. Nothing could stop them now. Surely that the Emperor had been thought loss was not the punishment of God, but a test of their faith. A test of their worth. And they were determined to pass that test. Jerusalem would be theirs and the Saracens driven like dust before the wind.
For God. For Jesus Christ. For the Emperor.
Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra. [2]
1: A tip of the hat to those who designed the Barbarossa campaign for Age of Empires II.
2: Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. In Latin of course.
I'm probably going to add something on what Alexius is doing in response to the news on Iconium, as this is a short update, but I figured I'd post this now.
Thankee.
Any places or people you want to see do well (or poorly) compared to OTL the way ByzantineCaesar wants to see King Bela?
No need to name anyone, but there's a large area that may or may not benefit from the butterflies of the Byzantines and HRE doing differently. So suggestions are welcome.
Hmm... personally, I think it'd be very interesting to see Philip II Augustus not be as successful as he was in OTL. Maybe he dies younger, maybe during the Third Crusade, if he still partakes in it ITTL. If he does, I think that Louis VIII is around 3 at Philip's death; making for a long regency. Just a thought. I eagerly await more!