The Death of Russia - TL

[CASSICTOR2]

So I looked through the TL to see who survived 4/10 that could go to trial and from the looks of it, both Eduard Limonov, Anatoly Fomenko and Alexey Dobrovolsky are not mentioned to have died during the Exchange, so the only question is where are they after everything. Timothy McVeigh is mentioned to have memoirs IIRC so he could potentially still be alive if he lucked out in Stalingrad and if he makes it to The Hague.

Yazov was mentioned to be the highest-ranking member of Anpilov’s government to survive, but there hasn't been any word of Viktor Ilyukhin since the aftermath of Moscow. I'm guessing Prosecutor General could be lower than Grand Marshal or whatever Yazov's rank was but maybe Ilyukhin met his end as well.

Not really expecting any answers until the chapter with the Hague does come out, mostly just listing out who could be alive still.

Someone finally used my term of "4/10" mate thank you but regardless TLDR next chapter it's probably the most heaviest post about the aftermath of 4/10 and it's affected around the world

I hope that everyone who involves 4/10 got locked up for life or sentence to death for the crime of human dignity

 

[Whiteshore]

Someone finally used my term of "4/10" mate thank you but regardless TLDR next chapter it's probably the most heaviest post about the aftermath of 4/10 and it's affected around the world

I hope that everyone who involves 4/10 got locked up for life or sentence to death for the crime of human dignity

Especially the Al-Qaeda militants who triggered the whole thing by nuking Stalingrad.

 

[Lalli]

I hope that everyone who involves 4/10 got locked up for life or sentence to death for the crime of human dignity

ICC doesn't recognise death penalty so the Hague is not going to hang anyone altough probable there is lot of proposals.

But if Americans capture some high-level jihadists (there has already said Guantanamo being around) they pretty surely are going to get their last needle.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

I wonder how the drug war will be impacted. The nihilism and anxiety in this era would absolutely increase drug use. And with so many resources trying to occupy European Russia, would some people seriously consider ending the drug war because they would rightfully view it as a waste?

 

[Noblesse Oblige]

So everything is on fucking fire...at least from the look of things compared to the last time I was here...the 90s will most certainly be a cursed decade for certain.

I wonder how the drug war will be impacted. The nihilism and anxiety in this era would absolutely increase drug use. And with so many resources trying to occupy European Russia, would some people seriously consider ending the drug war because they would rightfully view it as a waste?

I could see the drug war coming to an end due to a shift in priorities.

 

[Icedaemon]

You might have to go all the way back to Ivan the Terrible. The counterbalances to the monarch in the country have been weaker in Russia than in other parts of Europe since that point. However, if the election of Michael as Tsar at the end of the time of troubles had had the type of counterbalances that Parliament imposed when Charles II took back the English Throne after Cromwell, *maybe* you could get the type of counterbalances that England and later Britain ended up with. After the beginning of the Romanov Dynasty, OTOH, good luck.

A long-held personal feeling for me is that a stable democratic russia with a later POD is so hard to believe it's turned me off from some timelines.

 

[SuperZtar64]

From what I recall the west mostly did the following: supply far-right/far-left leaning volunteers to the combatants

Not like that was official government policy.

exchange large amounts of supplies, food, medicine and fuel to the NSF government in Petrograd in exchange for minorities who were basically being held as hostages

Which was the right move.

provide the book that would give the Zass Plan its inspiration

That book was the writing of one racist lunatic. I fail to see how this fault can be applied to the west as a whole.

generally made it hard for Russians to flee west.

This one, at least, is accurate. But probably the right call anyway still.

They urged Yeltsin to pass free market policies that racked the country.

Transitioning the world's largest socialist economy into a free market one is going to be a difficult process no matter what.

This entire conflict and its consequences, at the end of the day, frankly, is completely the fault of the Russian people. They dug their grave long in advance and now they are lying in it.

 

[Lalli]

This entire conflict and its consequences, at the end of the day, frankly, is completely the fault of the Russian people. They dug their grave long in advance and now they are lying in it.

Yeah. Russians begun totally themselves fight each others. No one didn't want that. Only mistake what the West did was that it pushed too much turn away from socialism. It just couldn't work finerly with a country which has not democratic heritage and has been socialist centralist command economy system 70 years and even before that it hadn't clear western style capitalist economy.

Russians screwed their own nation totally themselves. It was probably doomed since days of Ivan the Terrible.

 

[Whiteshore]

Yeah. Russians begun totally themselves fight each others. No one didn't want that. Only mistake what the West did was that it pushed too much turn away from socialism. It just couldn't work finerly with a country which has not democratic heritage and has been socialist centralist command economy system 70 years and even before that it hadn't clear western style capitalist economy.

Russians screwed their own nation totally themselves. It was probably doomed since days of Ivan the Terrible.

I imagine quite a few people to look at the Polish-Lithuanian occupation of Moscow during the Time of Troubles as a "lost opportunity" at averting Russia's descent towards autocracy and argue that long-term rule by Poland-Lithuania would have been a "blessing in disguise", on grounds that Poland-Lithuania's concept of "golden liberty", even if it was a democracy of, for, and by the landed magnates, could have shifted political development in Russia towards a less autocratic direction in such a scenario.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

Transitioning the world's largest socialist economy into a free market one is going to be a difficult process no matter what.

This entire conflict and its consequences, at the end of the day, frankly, is completely the fault of the Russian people. They dug their grave long in advance and now they are lying in it.

The West was the one that gave the horrible ideas for things like shock therapy in whatnot. Sure Yeltsin and the government made the choices in the end but it's not a bad suggestion to blame the West for recommending horrible economic policies in the first place.

 

[Whiteshore]

My guess is China would actually survive, and there seems to be indication that China still controls North Korea well into the 2000s.

And the update on the fate of Mir mentions that the Chinese use Kazakh space facilities for their space program as well.

 

[AstroRangerBeans]

And the update on the fate of Mir mentions that the Chinese use Kazakh space facilities for their space program as well.

Well, the Kazakh space facilities was destroyed during the 4/10 tragedy.

 

[Whiteshore]

Well, the Kazakh space facilities was destroyed during the 4/10 tragedy.

Unfortunately, even though yeah, that doesn't preclude China rebuilding them.

 

[Deus_Vult]

The West was the one that gave the horrible ideas for things like shock therapy in whatnot. Sure Yeltsin and the government made the choices in the end but it's not a bad suggestion to blame the West for recommending horrible economic policies in the first place.

Economic shock-therapy was employed by other ex-Soviet states and they didn't turn into authoritarian dictatorships controlled by oligarchs.

The failure of these policies lies on the Russia leadership, for their disasterous imolementation, and the Russian people, who refused to engage with their past and instead allowed themselves to disengage from poloitics and accepted comfort over liberty.

 

[sarahz]

Nuclear Winter, Oil and Gas economy goes to crisis and Russia wars fuck up Asian financial wealth to said the least

On the other hand reconstruction amounts to a massive Keynesian intervention and small government objections ill be swept aside.

 

[sarahz]

Isn't Nuclear Winter an incorrect and obsolete theory?

hmm maybe but a certain volcanic eruption which has certain similarities did famously lead to some temperature effects.

 

[Whiteshore]

Honestly, of the three main Russian successor states, the most interesting one to me is Lebed's Siberia, in how Siberia is very much a state that has no desire to be its own thing, with how Lebed wanted to be ruler of Russia and all that, yet has to develop a new national identity from scratch in order to distance itself from the madness of the civil war and how we know little of what life under Lebed's rule actually looks like.

 

[Whiteshore]

hmm maybe but a certain volcanic eruption which has certain similarities did famously lead to some temperature effects.

And the nuclear war here occurred 181 years to the day since the start of said eruption.

 

[Lalli]

Economic shock-therapy was employed by other ex-Soviet states and they didn't turn into authoritarian dictatorships controlled by oligarchs.

The failure of these policies lies on the Russia leadership, for their disasterous imolementation, and the Russian people, who refused to engage with their past and instead allowed themselves to disengage from poloitics and accepted comfort over liberty.

Results of shock therapy vary greatly among ex-soviet republics and satelite states. For example Baltics and Poland managed to deal pretty well one major reason being that they were under yoke of Soviet tyranny only 40 years. But some others couldn't fare very well.

And one of major problem of Russia indeed was that unlike many other satelites and ex-soviet republics, old communist elite managed to keep its power. It wasn't enforced to watch back and condemn horrible atrocities. Pretty scary thing is that good number of Russians still see Stalin as one of greatest Russians. There just wasn't ever critical view over communist past. In many Eastern European nations opposition leaders got power but it didn't happen in Russia. Yeltsin was long-timed communist politician and many others post-Soviet Russian politicians have created career either on Soviet politics or on KGB.

 

[SuperZtar64]

Yeah. Russians begun totally themselves fight each others. No one didn't want that. Only mistake what the West did was that it pushed too much turn away from socialism. It just couldn't work finerly with a country which has not democratic heritage and has been socialist centralist command economy system 70 years and even before that it hadn't clear western style capitalist economy.

Russians screwed their own nation totally themselves. It was probably doomed since days of Ivan the Terrible.

I imagine quite a few people to look at the Polish-Lithuanian occupation of Moscow during the Time of Troubles as a "lost opportunity" at averting Russia's descent towards autocracy and argue that long-term rule by Poland-Lithuania would have been a "blessing in disguise", on grounds that Poland-Lithuania's concept of "golden liberty", even if it was a democracy of, for, and by the landed magnates, could have shifted political development in Russia towards a less autocratic direction in such a scenario.

Russia has been a doomed nation since the Mongols. Every time nomads conquer settled peoples, they always meld and change to fit into the cultures they conquer. Except with Russia, where the process happened in reverse. The extractive institutions of the Mongol Empire stayed with Russia forever.

The raison d'etre of the Russian state is and has always been the utter domination of its subjects, and the raison d'etre of the Russian is to be a flimsy puppet in the iron vice grip of the Tsar, General-Secretary, or President. The exception that proves the rule is the Russian Revolution. It speaks volumes that the ONE time the Russian people decide they're not going to take it anymore, tried to take their destiny into their own hands, and worked for something resembling freedom, they immediately relapse into a tyranny that was in many ways worse than the one they just overthrew. Russia is a unique nation as it is not bound together by things like language or religion or ideology, but instead by apathy, brutality, and trauma. One poster a while back complained about an abundance of TLs that give Russian civilization the old cleansing treatment- this is why. Russia's "special" nature makes it a lot easier for this kind of deleterious barbarity and lunacy to take hold and prosper.

This is all a long way of saying that all this discussion about the west's potential reflection on itself in the wake of the tragedy in Russia is mostly wasted air. If any major cultural trends of denying western complicity in the 2RCW and its consequences exists in the future, it will be because it is true. Saying that the entire fault for the war lays at the feet of its primary victims- the Russian people- is at best only a very, very slight exaggeration, and frankly that's one of the most tragic aspects of the whole debacle in general.